Posted on 07/28/2005 8:24:10 AM PDT by petro45acp
What constitutes excessive force when someone's trying to kill you?
Did Dan Rather write this???
Let's see ... scared supply clerks with M2 & Mk19s ... there is no doubt in my mind.
By golly give them light sabre's that will take care of it.
I personally prefer excessive force in all our dealing with Islam. If killing a hundred of them saves one of ours do it!!!!
SOS different name.
We need a PC Machine gun, instead of going Ratta Tat Tat goes Tickle Tickle Tickle.
"laser-guided 9mm Beretta pistols...."
Whoever wrote that HAD to be a Shadowrun player.
Sounds too much like the 'smartgun link' that in the game autoaims your weapon for you.
Besides, a 9mm isn't going to do much against an IED detonation followed by RPG and AK's firing at you regardless of whether or not it has a laser pointer tacked to it.
I'd say gimme the M2HB and the Mk19 mod3 anyday instead.
This General needs to transfer to a Military School for pre-school girls.
Keep'em Comin'
They should set their phasers to stun.
... in a memo stamped "secret." A copy of the memo was obtained by The Washington Times....
ok.. another alleged "secret" memo outed by MSM
and a laser guided pistol? does that mean they found a way to curve the laser to show you the projected trajectory? one that also take into account temperature, wind speeds and direction, humidity, etc?
I don't know about the pistols (wtf ?), but replacements for the M2 and Mk19 are already in production. These weapons will utilize a computerized gunsight to provide precision fires for the newer .50cal, 25mm and 40mm weapons/ammunitions being produced. The days for firing the iron-sighted M2 and Mk19 will soon be at an end.
Now, sharks. Sharks with laser-beams on their heads. Yeah...
Objective Crew Served Weapon (OCSW)
The Objective Crew Served Weapon (OCSW), XM307, will be the dismounted infantry crew served weapon and defensive armament system for seven variants of the Future Combat System. The system includes: a 25mm automatic cannon capable of firing airburst and armor piercing ammunition; and, a .50 Cal Variant(XM312). The system (25mm and .50 Cal Variant) provides increased lethality and significant reductions in weight and supportability costs. The high explosive airbursting munition provides incapacitation and suppression out to 2,000 meters against both exposed and defilade personnel targets and light skinned vehicles. The OCSW is a transition from Advanced Technology
Demonstration/Development (ATD)(BA 3 PE 63607/D627) to BA 5 (PE 64601/D627) however, the effort for the .50 Cal Variant will be a new start in FY04. This FCS subsystem supports the Legacy to Objective transition path of the Transformation Campaign Plan.
"U.S. Army soldiers have used "excessive" and "unauthorized deadly force" in Iraq to defend supply convoys because they did not have the proper weapons."
This is an abolutely incorrect statement. If a soldier is in a situation where the use of force is authorized and he only has Weapon X, he is authorized to use Weapon X and to do so is neither unauthorized nor excessive. A soldier has an obligation to defend himself and his fellow soldiers. There is no obligation to allow yourself to be killed or accept mission failure because you did not have the most efficient weapon system available.
I know what red dot sights are as I have one for a carbine and one for a hunting handgun. I also know what laser sights are and understand their real limitations in that the laser doesn't have a trajectory and isn't affected by wind or other things that change the direction of a real bullet.
I would hardly ever think of calling the latter ...precision-guided pistols...laser-guided 9 mm Beretta pistols...
Now lets look at the big picture discussed in the article to see how messed up the author really is and how this is just an anti-military hatchet job.
"...not have the right mix of weapons to fire from the turrets of armored Humvees and other vehicles that guard supply trucks. ...being forced to use M-2 machine guns (50 cal BMG) and MK-19 grenade launchers, which apparently killed unintended targets. He said soldiers, when attacked, have no time to reach down inside their armored vehicles to retrieve more accurate weapons. "The speed of our convoys and oncoming threats allow no time for soldiers to alternately reach down to grab an M-16 or M-4 [rifles] in order to ensure that proportionate force is utilized to ensure innocent civilians are not engaged," he said. Gen. Chaves, who commands the Hawaii Army National Guard 29th Separate Infantry Brigade, said the answer was to equip soldiers with laser-guided 9 mm Beretta pistols...
I am reminded of a situation in Seattle where a police car was stolen by a person impersonating a police officer and wearing a police officers uniform. Two Seattle police cars looking for the "real thief" accidentally came upon each other and the two cars collided. Instantly the occupants of both vehicles "assumed they had found the thief." In the ensuing gun battle over 39 round of 9mm ammo were exchanged between the real police shooting a real police. No one was injured during this fire fight among trained police professionals who are required to qualify in shooting skill tests.
A couple of points. A 9mm handgun, no matter what the sight, is only as accurate as the skill of the person using it. Second, there is a real tendency among many to "spray & pray." That is fire as many rounds as possible and pray that you hit something. Third, if the issue is the "accuracy range of a 9mm, unless it is a really "tricked out" Beretta, 25 yards is probably the limit for most shooters. Under a stress firing situation from a moving vehicle it is probably even less. At distances much greater, the accuracy falls off and "innocent bystanders could be harmed" (laser guided or not).
Finally, M-16 or M-4 rifles are 100 to 400 yard effective accuracy range weapons.
So if the issue is that on needs to be able defend against other vehicles or against defended positions the M2 & MK-19 sound like the right choice. If the need is to defend against individuals a extremely close range (under 25 yards) a pistol might work (laser guided or not). If the need is to defend against individuals in the open (say with rocket propelled grenade launcher) then a submachine gun or assault rifle might be the optimal choice. However, even then stray rounds are likely to go past the bad guys and potentially harm innocents.
Civilians need to be very careful in war-zones. It has always been that way throughout recorded history. If they see someone who might engaging soldiers in combat they need to get out of the way or turn the guy in. This isn't about
Ok, the writer has no familiarity with weapons terminology. If the M-2 and MK-19 are too heavy to use, WTF are they doing mounted on convoy vehicles? I know the old -60 is outdated, but it is still in service, and the replacement is coming on-line soon. Put these back on the vehicles where they belong, and these anti-personnel problems will go away.
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