FINAL CAFTA VOTE ROLL CALL - How did your Congressman Vote?

The NY Times is known to print blatant lies. And you are saying that while both are guilty of lying, the Bush administration is actually WORSE, because they are killing people with their lies, and taking away our freedom?

Yes. That is exactly what I'm saying.

You may think of me as "far right," but supporters of this administration are the ones in bed with the leftists. Both believe in big government (at least in practice, if not in theory); the only difference is in deciding who gets to call the shots. I would think the fact that government grew bigger and more expensive in Bush's first four years than it did during Clinton's eight-year reign would be proof enough.

Oh, I see..........you're one of those 'money is the only thing in life' rightists.

There are dozens of things I could list as proof that this administration is conservative and good for conservative causes, but I'll just mention one. Judges.

Every day on this forum, I see multiple posts where uber rightists are in perfect alignment with the extreme left. PERFECT alignment. The good thing about that is, that unlike the left, you are politically impotent.

As a conservative I don't like the spending, but when weighed in balance with lower taxes, moral values and the sanctity of life, originalist interpretation of the Constitution, strong military and American sovereignty abroad, it's not even close.

And you make yourself look like a gullible fool if you think this administration has lied to you.........but now, at least I see why you and your buddies always latch onto anything the NYTimes says........you AGREE with their lies.

There are dozens of things I could list as proof that this administration is conservative and good for conservative causes, but I'll just mention one. Judges.

"Conservative"? Are you really THAT blinded by your party loyalty? Bush has been spending money like Bill Clinton in a whorehouse. The Patriot Act has given unprecedented police powers to the feds. Campaign Finance Reform has essentially killed freedom of speech in this country.

On top of everything, Bush is NOT pro-life. You think a victory was scored with the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act? First of all, the language specifically excluded from prosecution women who have the procedure performed on them. Secondly, it gave the pro-death crowd more room to maneuver because it only attacked a particular procedure; it did not reinforce the sanctity of life. Thirdly, it was ruled unconstitutional, and Bush has done nothing about it. So much for that.

As for your argument that Bush will appoint constitutionalists to federal courts, you can forget it. Bush has already given William "Judas" Pryor his 30 pieces of silver for what he did to Judge Roy Moore and the concept of states' rights. Now we have John Roberts nominated for the highest court in the land. You know who Roberts is, don't you?:

"Roe v. Wade is the settled law of the land. It is not--it's a little more than settled. It was reaffirmed in the face of a challenge that it should be overruled in the Casey decision. Accordingly, it's the settled law of the land. There's nothing in my personal views that would prevent me from fully and faithfully applying that precedent, as well as Casey."

Most "conservatives" have fallen into the idolatry of statism. Their complete and utter devotion to this president and his liberal, destructive policies cannot be described any other way.

And you make yourself look like a gullible fool if you think this administration has lied to you.

But you're not a gullible fool for believing his lies. Whatever. You probably think that WMD will turn up in Iraq any day now. You probably also think that it's just fine for our "Christian" president to say on "Good Morning America" that non-Christians and Muslims go to heaven.

You know, the reason politicians continue to lie is because so many people keep believing them.

Oh, my goodness! You ARE a leftist!

You accuse the President of lying. I'll ask the same thing I'd ask of any leftist doing that (may I call you Teddy?).........PROVE it.

Give one actual FACT that proves any lie any time. (the WMD joke you just told makes you look like you ARE Ted Kennedy. Every rational person on earth knows that he told no lies about WMD). I won't hold my breath waiting for you to come up with facts.........because there AREN'T ANY.

Campaign Finance Reform is the only thing you are accurate about. It was a big, stupid mistake.

And I DO know who John Roberts is. He's an originalist who interprets law according to the Founders intent. Do you know who Janice Rogers Brown is? Do you know who Patricia Owen is? (What a joke you are!)

And you, like all the other leftists WISH that the President weren't pro-life. The abortion industry hates him as much as you do........and probably for the same reason. The holocaust is being turned around because of this President, and you all hate him for it. Right to Life organizations, and pro-life advocates (LIKE ME) respect and admire him for the hundreds of decisions he's made to change this culture back to one that honors life.

The funny thing about you, is that you didn't even mention the areas where the President actually isn't very conservative..........like education and immigration. If you were a conservative interested in truth, you wouldn't list the phony leftist issues and ignore the real areas where REAL conservatives disagree.

btw, tell your friends at the ACLU that I offer them my condolences in your losing battle against truth and real liberty. I'm not wasting any more time with a leftist. I prefer to spend my time with sane conservatives, and you don't qualify on either count.

Give one actual FACT that proves any lie any time.

Well, I already did. Bush claims to be a Christian, yet in an interview on "Good Morning America" he stated his belief that non-Christians and Mulims go to heaven. He believes that we all "have different routes of getting there," which means he doesn't believe Christ is the only way. No true Christian would say such things. He's a liar who knows exactly what to say to get people like you to follow him.

Campaign Finance Reform is the only thing you are accurate about.

Really? Government isn't bigger, more expensive and more intrusive? What country have you been living in these past few years?

And I DO know who John Roberts is. He's an originalist who interprets law according to the Founders intent.

And you're a liar. If Roberts is an "originalist," then explain why he said he would uphold the immoral, illegal, unconstitutional Roe v. Wade decision. Your idea of "pro-life" is to vote Republican and think you've actually done something about the abortion holocaust.

If you were a conservative interested in truth, you wouldn't list the phony leftist issues and ignore the real areas where REAL conservatives disagree.

Excuse me? The Left has made the argument that Bush is spending too much on entitlement programs? They are complaining that he isn't pro-life? You ARE delusional, liar.

Whatever you say, shelly..... If you want to call me a liar, just go right ahead.

At least I'm in good company with the President. I'd rather be with him; a loving, decent, honest, strong human being, than with an angry, confused weak fellow like you.

I'm a dedicated pro-lifer, and so is the President. I'm pro-military, and so is the President. I'm pro lower taxes, and so is the President. I'm pro- business and so is the President. I'm a patriot and so is the President. I'm a born again Christian and so is the President.

Yep............I'll be glad to be thrown in the same basket with him by you.........a politically impotent, angry man who makes false accusations just like the leftists he believes in and agrees with and defends.

But just for the record and for anyone lurking who may be naive enough to take you seriously, you can accuse me til the cows come home, but I don't lie..........EVER.

I hope you find peace some day, shel. I really do.

... you're one of those 'money is the only thing in life' rightists.

You ARE a leftist!

And I DO know who John Roberts is. He's an originalist who interprets law according to the Founders intent.

The holocaust is being turned around because of this President, and you all hate him for it.

...but I don't lie..........EVER.

Yeah. Right.

I've checked out a few of your other posts around here, shelton, and you almost seem like a rational person most of the time.

So I have a question for you.....

Why did you come on this thread sounding like a raving leftist lunatic accusing the President of lying about WMD, and all that Ted Kennedyesque nonsense?

Since you instigated this discussion by pinging me, there are two options.

One..........you were just trying to tweak me because you know I support the President, and you despise him, or.....
Two.........you were under the influence of something.

Which one was it? (Because no sane person believes that the President lied about WMD like you said he did).

Why did you come on this thread sounding like a raving leftist lunatic accusing the President of lying about WMD, and all that Ted Kennedyesque nonsense?

If you go back and read my original post, I was responding to your criticism of billbears. You falsely accused him of believing that "anyone who supports the war in Iraq is a non-thinking fool," but you said as much about those who are against the war. You also implied that the difference between you two is that you trust government and he doesn't. I merely pointed out that it is wise to distrust government because it is the one institution in this country that has the ability to take your liberty. As influential as the NY Times is, it does not have the power of the state to imprison you or kill you. I don't know if you're aware of it or not, but this country was founded on a healthy distrust of government.

Since you instigated this discussion by pinging me, there are two options.

One..........you were just trying to tweak me because you know I support the President, and you despise him, or..... Two.........you were under the influence of something.

Which one was it? (Because no sane person believes that the President lied about WMD like you said he did).

His "intelligence" was based on things like the British "dossier" on Hussein and the Nigerian "yellowcake" uranium documents--both of which proved to be fake. He lied. Many of us kept insisting that no WMD would be found in Iraq. We were right, and yet we are the ones considered to be "leftists" or "extremists." Can't say I'm surprised.

I'm afraid your desperation is beginning to show. You want so badly to believe that the only explanation for people not supporting the president is that they are either drunk or insane. It couldn't possibly be due to a careful examination of the facts and a realistic understanding of the history of government in this country.

By the way, you still haven't addressed the pro-Roe v. Wade quote from Roberts or Bush's claim that Christ isn't the only way to salvation. Both examples prove that the president isn't what he claims.

In the first place, let me make it clear that I, in no way, trust 'government.' In fact, I distrust it highly. But I do trust President Bush (as I did Reagan), and I trust his ability to choose good people to lead within his administration, and he has done nothing in the past four years to make me lose that trust. This is NOT to say that I agree with everything he's done. Not even close. I disagree with much of the spending, I disagree with his signing CFR, I disagree with how little he's done to curb illegal immigration. But that's different than not trusting him.

I was razzing billbears for trusting the NYTimes........I find it very amusing that you far righters almost always jump on NYTimes articles that bash the President because you don't like the President either, completely disregarding the fact that the NYTimes lies about everything, and can't be trusted about ANYthing.

Then you come on the thread and actually accuse the President of killing people with his lies........which is out of the far left playbook.........and expect me to think you're a conservative? Give me a break! NO conservative would think that kind of garbage came from a fellow conservative. It's leftist trash.

About WMD.........there's lots of info out there that you have chosen to ignore......which is clearly your right. British intelligence still stands by the yellow cake/Niger connection, and I prefer to trust them than to trust Joe Wilson. You obviously picked Joe Wilson to believe. Again........your right to trust the left if you so choose.

Incidentally, I'm not even close to being 'desperate.' I have seen over and over again, in attempts to belittle and bash President Bush, extreme rightists siding with lying, filthy leftists. I've seen it repeatedly, and frankly, it disgusts me.

As to the President's comments about salvation..........I am (deeply) troubled by them IF that transcript is accurate. (I didn't hear him, and I don't trust anyone in the leftist media to tell or print the truth). I don't know if he really believes that, and if he does, his theology is wrong, but it doesn't mean he isn't a Christian. If he said it to get a monkey off his back, he was wrong. No matter what it means, as a Christian, he was wrong to say it.

(I pray daily for the President, that he will be given the wisdom that he seeks from the Lord.....HIS Lord........and I have added that to my prayers. He is still growing in Christ, and I think he may have gotten some very bad advice).

Incidentally, I have a lot of respect for billbears. He is clearly well versed on the Constitution and the writings of the Founders, and he believes strongly in states' rights (to a fault, IMO), but he usually maintains a politeness that is very rare among those of you far rightests.......and I appreciate that. But I will still razz him for trusting the NY Times.

Two more points to address with which I disagree with you.

John Roberts is an originalist (which is what we both want). As such, on an Appellate court it is his responsibility to rule according to the law of the land, whether he likes it or not. Roe v Wade, whether we like it or not, has become settled law.

The only way Roberts could rule against it would be to become an activist judge and place his own personal beliefs and wishes above his duty as a judge to uphold the law. That's activism, and that's another area where you apparently side with the left. (I'll trust Mark Levin's evaluation over yours, if you don't mind.....)

Second.....the economy. As conservatives, none of us like the federal spending. But the federal budget was increasing at about 15% during the Clinton years, and if my memory serves me correctly, this year it is 4 or 5 percent.......an improvement, at least. Also, productivity has increased dramatically because of the administration's pro-business positions regarding taxes, and the dramatic mid-recession tax cuts of 2001. The tax revenues have increased slashing the deficit, inflation is down, unemployment is extremely low, and quality jobs have been added (many of which are personal businesses).

We may not think that spending has been cut enough, but it has been cut, and even though we are extremely over taxed, this President has continued to cut taxes in spite of the left's attempts to compare him to Herbert Hoover.

There are different kinds of conservatives, and those of you who hate President Bush are the ones whose only real conservatism lies in the areas of smaller government and less government spending. Those of us who are conservative in a broader sense that includes the sanctity of life and marriage, personal responsibility, lower taxes, a strong military, a strong pro-American position abroad, though we may disagree on some issues, understand that conservative goals will be met by this President to a greater degree than any previous President (including Reagan).

Last point........you have said that the President is not a Christian (something you cannot possibly know), but many others who are strong Christians have met with him and prayed with him, and recognize that his faith is real, and that he is a brother in Christ. Chuck Colson comes to mind. Once again, I'll trust the people who know him, rather than agreeing with you......

btw, he's appointing Bolton today to ride herd on and clean up the UN. THAT should make you happy.............if you are capable of being happy by anything this fine man and strong President does.

As a federal judge, his job is to rule according to the Constitution, which is "settled law." Judicial precedence does play a role, but not when previous rulings violate the supreme law of the land. Unless, of course, you agree with liberals that ruling according to the Constitution (which is NOT a "living, breathing document") makes one an activist.

As conservatives, none of us like the federal spending. But the federal budget was increasing at about 15% during the Clinton years, and if my memory serves me correctly, this year it is 4 or 5 percent.......an improvement, at least.

If you compare him to Clinton, Bush has not cut spending. Oh, and the president even lied on national television about discretionary spending as well.

Fine. I simply pointed out what the president himself said, and I have yet to hear an explanation or a retraction. Here's what David Frum, former Bush speechwriter and strong Bush supporter, had to say:

If you want to know what George Bush really thinks, look at what he says. He believes in a personal God who answers prayers. He believes that truth is found in all religions and that all people who pray pray to the same God. He believes that prayer and faith can allow one to improve one's own life and save one, not just in the theological sense but in this world. And he's told us that he does not ask God to tell him what to do, but asks God for wisdom and judgment and calm. If you said to him, "Does God want you to invade Iraq?" he'd say, "I don't know." He'd say, "I asked for the best wisdom I could have to make that decision."

Only God knows what's in the heart, but people lying about their faith in Christ is nothing new.

David Frum is NOT a strong Bush supporter. The Bush family hardly even knew who he was when he wrote his book (mostly about himself). You need to find accurate sources when you make judgements about a person's character.

We could debate the judicial situation and what is 'settled law' until the cows come home, but nothing I believe is even close to a liberal position. I see your point, but many very conservative judicial experts disagree with you.

It is your right to always assume the worst about the President as you do, and believe only negative sources (that back up your template). It is even your right to call him a liar, just like Ted Kennedy does. But it doesn't make you right.

You agree with the ACLU on civil liberties, and you agree with Dennis Kucinich on the War in Iraq.

That's all I need to know about you. If you go around the circle far enough to the right, you end up meeting the left, and that's exactly where you are on some very significant issues.

Thanks for being polite though....... at least a little bit.

btw, I didn't 'falsely accuse' billbears of anything. He condescends to those who disagree with him all the time and insults others so often as non-thinkers, that he doesn't even know he's doing it.

If that's what got you into this fray, too bad......because you're wrong about that too.

In the mean time, I'm celebrating the very bold and conservative nomination of John Bolton to the UN. No attack from an uber-con can dim my mood today.

God BLESS America, and God BLESS this strong, honorable President! :)

Our beloved trading partners never lived up to the NAFTA treaty the way it was passed. CAFTA was created to give away more in hopes that present NAFTA partners (CA and Mex.) would uphold their end of the NAFTA agreement. I guess manufacturing isn't an important sector in our economy any more? There is no way Americans can compete with cheap foreign (slave) labor. Think US manufacturing moving to Mexico was a good idea? Have you read about the tremendous pollution and medical problems rampart in the Mexican mill towns just over the southern border? Of course you haven't heard much to do about that. That would tell the world that Mexico's government has no concern whatsoever for it's working poor.

>"...it allows cheaper goods to flow into the US (building our ability to purchase goods at cheaper prices..."<

yes...it's cheaper yet to have political prisoners in Communist China (laogais) manufacturing our goods then for our blue collar workers to do it here.
It's definitely cheaper to outsource computer IT work to the third world. They work for a tenth of what IT guys work for here. Funny how most Americans want to make enough at their job be able to afford a house with indoor plumbing...

Hells-bells, lets just outsource everything to the third world, and communist China.

Then, we can become a strictly consumer society, where we manufacture nothing, and just purchase everything from despotic third world dictatorships, despots and Communists!

...And while we are at it...let's outsource your job to the third worlders as well.

Great idea.

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