In Major Departure From U.S. Legal Model, Iraq's Draft Constitution Gives Islam Key Role

AP ^ | AP-ES-07-26-05 1459EDT

[mcg1969]

Sure, but if they go down this path, then I no longer want to suport them with American money or American blood.

Now we may be getting somewhere.

[GoLightly]

Will this move Iraq hard to a religious right or will it have the affect of moving an understanding of Islam to the left? Iraq claims to reject Iranian style theocracy & Iraq is considered to lean towards more towards secularism than many other Islamic nations. If there is to be any form of renaissance or an interjection of enlightenment into Islam, this is what it will look like.

[Black Tooth]

What a sellout and an affront to every soldier who lost their lives fighting over there. Islam is not conducive to true democracy.

Agree.

[TheOtherOne]

Now we may be getting somewhere.

Read my #3, the first post of this thread. We've been there all along!

[Mister Baredog]

AP LOL

[highball]

Agreed. The Constitution is brilliant in no small part *because* it sidesteps sectarian arguments.

[ArcadeQuarters]

If they want to sleep in their own feces, let them. It's of no concern to me.

[UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide]

RULES OF ISLAM:

THIS IS NOT FROM AL-QAEDA!

THIS IS JUST A BIT OF WHAT ALL MUSLIMS, INCLUDING SO-CALLED MODERATES, SIGN UP FOR WHEN THEY SAY THE BISMALLAH, "THERE IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH AND MUHAMMAD IS HIS PROPHET"!

KORAN [3.28] Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.

KORAN [4.34] Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

KORAN [4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

KORAN [9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

KORAN [9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair [Ezra] is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

HADITH Sahih Bukhari [4:52:176] Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "

HADITH Sahih Bukhari [4:52:177] Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

HADITH Sahih Bukhari [4:56:791] Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The Jews will fight with you, and you will be given victory over them so that a stone will say, 'O Muslim! There is a Jew behind me; kill him!' "

HADITH Sahih Muslim [41:6981] Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying:
You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me); kill him.

HADITH Sahih Muslim [41:6982] Ubaidullah has reported this hadith with this chain of transmitters (and the Words are):
"There is a Jew behind me."

HADITH Sahih Muslim [41:6983] Abdullah b. 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying:
You and the Jews would fight against one another until a stone would say: Muslim, here is a Jew behind me; come and kill him.

HADITH Sahih Muslim [41:6984] Abdullah b. 'Umar reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said:
The Jews will fight against you and you will gain victory over them until the stone would say: Muslim, here is a Jew behind me; kill him.

HADITH Sahih Muslim [41:6985] Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying:
The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.

HADITH Sahih Bukhari [4:52:283] Narrated Abu Juhaifa:
I asked Ali, "Do you have the knowledge of any Divine Inspiration besides what is in Allah's Book?" 'Ali replied, "No, by Him Who splits the grain of corn and creates the soul. I don't think we have such knowledge, but we have the ability of understanding which Allah may endow a person with, so that he may understand the Qur'an, and we have what is written in this paper as well." I asked, "What is written in this paper?" He replied, "(The regulations of) blood-money, the freeing of captives, ******** and the judgment that no Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel." *********

HADITH Sunan Abu Dawud [14:2526] Narrated Anas ibn Malik:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, "There is no god but Allah" and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist). The tyranny of any tyrant and the justice of any just (ruler) will not invalidate it. One must have faith in Divine decree.

KORAN: http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/
HADITH: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html

[GoLightly]

Germany. Japan.

How long did it take & how many lives were lost to make it happen? Also make sure you remember to include the half of Germany that went to the Eastern block.

[TheOtherOne]

Also make sure you remember to include the half of Germany that went to the Eastern block.

That proves my point, that is in our control how Iraq ends up.

[quesney]

Maybe it would've been better to impose a constitution on them, ala Japan and Germany. Impossible in this political climate, though, and it would've required the complete decimination of Saddam's supporters -- all the Baathists -- and a multi-year occupation of at least five years, again, ala Japan (military) and Germany (Nazis).

[Gritty]

Well, so much for this "noble experiment" in freedom.

Oh, the trappings and sweet language of "freedom" and "rights" may persist a short time while we maintain a troop presence, but this is a fatal flaw in a constitutional republic actually working with a permanent change into one friendly to our cause.

In a few years, the three countries where Iraq used to stand will have their own variations of despots and will be killing each other and their own citizens all over again - and supporting Jihads. Look for the remaining Christian Iraqis to end up in Dearborn, Michigan (a real plus for us, by the way).

In our desire to give them what they "want", we have allowed the Muzzies to go a bridge too far. Sharia Law is completely incompatible with freedom and liberty. You can't change a culture to freedom and liberty if the baseline on which it stands is the very model for oppression and slavery, which Sharia Law is!

When we conquered Japan and Germany, we didn't try to put new wine into old wine skins by keeping the Emperor or the Nazi Party and their distinct world views - but with a "vote" of the people. We insisted they go whole hog for the correct model or it was "no dice" and they be made permanent potato and rice fields under permanent military subjugation.

Nice try, America, but no cigar. If this is the best we can do, it is simply not good enough despite all the flowery goals. We had better start thinking up a new strategic strategy to save our culture and civilization by spreading freedom and liberty to these oppressed peoples. This one won't work!

[Axlrose]

This is a suprise ?

They are and always were Muslims. Why did people think they would adopt a form of government contary to Islam ? Might not be to our taste, but giving them the freedom to decide their own form of government is why we are there, since the WMD failed to turn up.

That doesn't mean they will be anti west. Jordan, for example isn't.

[lepton]

It is a shame, isn't it? The Constitution is one of the most brilliant documents ever written. Too bad the Iraqis didn't read it and learn from it.

Part of the problem is that some things which they find to be cultural abominations to be derivatives of that document. Among these are things like "Desperate Houswives," and our tolerence for people like Bill Clinton. From an external point of view, that Clintons behavior wasn't condemnable under our Constitution and laws is itself a condemnation of our Constitution and laws.

[UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide]

Well, let's see. When we founded this great democracy of ours, women were not allowed to vote, slavery was legal

The Koran [4:34] commands men to beat disobedient women, essentially making them slaves. Did we fight a war to end slavery in our country and then another war to perpetuate it in another? Did we amend our Constitution only to set up an inimicable one (The Koran) which cannot be amended?

[mcg1969]

First of all, you are confusing a constitution with laws. They are distinct entities, with the former guiding and informing the latter. Thus it is entirely possible for them to lay down some basic rights in the constitution, even some that are distinctly contrary to Koranic teaching, and also decree that the laws be consistent with Islam. Obviously this places limits on what Islamic teaching can be come law.

Secondly, we did not fight a war so that we could create an exact clone of the U.S. We're not perpetuating anything in Iraq. At worst, we are allowing things to continue so that we can accept progress towards an ultimate goal. It's not unlike the founding of this country. Many people we against slavery but they understood that unifying the country was, at the time, more important.

[UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide]

First, they are incorporating the Koran into the Constitution by reference.

Second, you cannot keep comparing the founding of our country to Iraq. Our founding we did ourselves. Theirs is being done after we fought a war for them (and us) and they are doing so under our protection (and occupation). And they are even less historically prepared to do so than we were 229 years ago. And beside that they are saddled with a religion that calls for beating women and killing Christians, Jews and other infidels (us).

[GoLightly]

That proves my point, that is in our control how Iraq ends up.

I don't know how you think it proves your point. With Iraq we skipped the whole decimation of the societies part of the equation, which also included a lot allied deaths. If it had cost an additional 50,000 American deaths to drag Iraq down to the point we had to take Germany, would you think that would have been an acceptable loss, if you knew it would allow us impose western style democracy there?

[atlanta67]

keep in mind the AP wants badly to discredit the war

[atlanta67]

why do you automatically believe the AP