Posted on 07/25/2005 3:05:43 PM PDT by Murtyo
Irish Nazism?? Irish Islamic Fascism?? Doesn't ring any bells at all. There are some muslims in Ireland today who I'm sure would join the Jihad, but the Irish Govt. is keeping an eye on them I'm sure and Irish society is not as muslim as the UK or Germany or Holland. There were Fascist elements in ireland in the 30's, but there were in Britain, the United States and every other western country too. In Ireland, unlike in Germany and Italy, they never gained power.
I know I should.
I actually follow Irish politics rather closely, given my lineage.
But their pacifist streak borders on the absurd at times.
You got it. Wish it weren't so, but it's true. It's one of the reasons why as a young boy I got into trouble for saying "I'm not Irish-American, I'm American."
O'Dea has an army on his side - but it's the Irish army so she has a fighting chance.
Seems fair enough.
The world remained neutral during 600 years of English oppression.
Seems only right that Ireland would return the favor.
Then you've got a lot of reading to do, beginning with my initial post--SUPPORT for it. I never used the two terms you use, though there indeed was a Nazi movement in Ireland. When you've learned something maybe you'll be worth discussing the issue with, but I've no time for deniers and whitewashers.
there are elements in all societies that are knee jerk anti-American. I don't think that Ireland is more anti_american than france. Lots of people in Ireland have a high regard for the United States, despite what the likes of RTE and the Irish Times puts out every day.
there were Fascist movements and support for them in all countries. US corporations worked with Hitler throughout the 1930's. US history from the period up to Dec 1942 has lots of commentators and politicians making reasons for not intervening against the German/Fascist/Nazi threat to humanity.
The racist US South before the Civil rights had a lot in common with Facism/Nazism - much more that Ireland of the time had. What does that tell us?? Certainly not alot about present day Alabama or Georgia.
I can't agree. 2 wrongs and all that. Ireland should get in the fight, send a few 100 troops to Iraq and Afganistan. Don't think it will, but it should.
"O'Dea has an army on his side - but it's the Irish army so she has a fighting chance."
LOL. Thanks.
Yes, but if you went to the trouble of reading my original post, I am talking about Irish support for fascism NOW and in the past. I'm talking about the current situation--current, as in now--and showing how the long history of Ireland, from IRA terrorists (oh, which no one supports in Present-day Ireland, of course not) to WWII to today is one of embracing terrorism, anti-Semitism, and anti-Americanism. Dragging in the past sins of the US is a nice tactic, very clever, but it does not address the current and longterm eveidence, which is plentiful, that Ireland is no friend of the US, and rarely, if ever, has been.
Single empty seat at Turkey bomb victim funeral (Irish teenager killed by Islamofascists
Wikipedia - Margaret Hassan (Dublin born)
Wikipedia - Kenneth Bigley (his mother is Dublin born)
3 Hostages Taken in Afghanistan, Two More Missing (Annette Flanagan, from County Armagh)
Tributes to Irish blast victim
I could go on....
If Irish soil itself is immune from an Al Qaida attack, it is only because this is Sinn Fein/IRA's 'turf' - not because we are neutral - time this country got off the fence, and as the saying goes; "think global, act local" - the Garda Siochana and the Irish Defence Forces should therefore eradicate Hibernofascism from this island once and for all!
Agreed. The Irish people love Americans.
Even me.
Very well said.
Demographics will solve Ulster's entrenched stalemate, when Catholics will exceed their counterparts within the next generation. Then they will vote accordingly, which Lady Thatcher always found acceptable.
Disdainful as I am for the likes of Ian Paisley, Bernadette Devlin, Martin McGuiness, Adams, et al, neither side held the moral high ground from my long read of it.
Ultimately, the residents of Ulster will decide their sovereignty which is as it should be. Hopefully by then it will be more of an information based economy, and not enconsed in the heavy British industry base for which it has relied for the last two centuries.
What you said.
The term fascism has come to mean any system of government resembling Mussolini's, that in various combinations:
* exalts the nation, (and sometimes the race or culture) above the individual, with the state apparatus being supreme.
* stresses loyalty to a single leader.
* uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition.
* engages in severe economic and social regimentation.
* engages in syndicalist corporatism.
* implements totalitarian systems
Yes, but if you went to the trouble of reading my original post, I am talking about Irish support for fascism NOW and in the past. I'm talking about the current situation--current, as in now--and showing how the long history of Ireland, from IRA terrorists (oh, which no one supports in Present-day Ireland, of course not) to WWII to today is one of embracing terrorism, anti-Semitism, and anti-Americanism. Dragging in the past sins of the US is a nice tactic, very clever, but it does not address the current and longterm eveidence, which is plentiful, that Ireland is no friend of the US, and rarely, if ever, has been
OK I want to take you on point by point, I'll try not be condesending 'cause I don't know you that well and it's rude -
* 1. your talking about "Irish support for fascism NOW" - do you mean in the irish population or government? Cause I can find lots of fascist sites online and not too many of them are Irish or irish related. What Irish policy or public sentiment strikes you as fascist?
* 2. you mentioned "IRA terrorists" - they're associated with Sinn Fein, a socialist party, a party that got support from the Eastern bloc in the Cold War, they get some support (now) but Jim McDermott gets 75% of the vote in Seattle for the US Congress and he's on first name basis with Sadam - not a past sin, not even a past Southern sin, something that points to very questionable political judgements in a major American city.
* 3. you mentioned "anti-semitism" - while it exists in Ireland, notorious incidents like in 1904 when there was a pogrom against the Jews of that city - in the intervening years, while Ireland was no haven for European Jewry during the Nazi era, she has elected jews to some of the highest offices - Mayors of Dublin and Cork, to both bodies of the irish parliment - this considerering there are only a few thousand Irish Jews, with a population of 3-4 million.
* 4. on Anti-Americanism I grant that there's some there, especially amoung the media and the other elites. However I don't think that people in countries other that the US spend there whole days worrying about the United States, they don't order their lives on what's going on 1000's of miles away. What strikes me mostly about Irish people is how ignorant they are about the US. Just like lots of Americans in ignorant of other countries (not necessaily the worst thing, I don't agree that it's always wonderful to have lots of knowledge about every country on earth and little wisdom about you own life.)
* 5. In WWII and the cold war Ireland was "neutral" but in effect Ireland was pro-allies and pro-west in both. For reasons of history Ireland was unable to side with Great Britain - 17 years after she had bombed and burned Cork, Dublin and other towns and cities - I think Ireland should have sided with the Allies, German Nazism being a much greater evil that Britism Imperalism, but I can understand it. After WWII neutrality continued, mostly because of the unresolved status of Northern Ireland. And while I agree that Ireland harbors some anti-Americanism - just like Seattle - it can surely be argued that the United States, at least historically, especially in the WASP class, harbored anti-Irishness!!
Hope I didn't jump around too much. Don't have too much time. Best of luck.
Wow. Kicked to the curb by a meals-on-wheels military representative to tour...what exactly???
I don't understand why you posted this definition.
* 1. your talking about "Irish support for fascism NOW" - do you mean in the irish population or government? Cause I can find lots of fascist sites online and not too many of them are Irish or irish related. What Irish policy or public sentiment strikes you as fascist?
The Irish sure aren't beating down the door to help in the war on terror, the war against Islamofascism, or pretty much anything that aids the US and UK in battling the spread of Islamofascism.
* 2. you mentioned "IRA terrorists" - they're associated with Sinn Fein, a socialist party, a party that got support from the Eastern bloc in the Cold War, they get some support (now) but Jim McDermott gets 75% of the vote in Seattle for the US Congress and he's on first name basis with Sadam - not a past sin, not even a past Southern sin, something that points to very questionable political judgements in a major American city.
It's an interesting game you're playing but you're not very good at it. I mention IRA support in the context of support for terrorism. Digging out the support of ONE Congressman (what the heck that has to do with "political judgments in a major American city" other than being a ridiculous stretch, I don't know, but...) and comparing that with the history of an entire country is, simply put, ridiculous. Who argued that there aren't individual Americans who support X, Y or Z? No one. But taking the name of one American and thinking that somehow proves that the widespread support of the IRA for nearly a century is the same is nonsensical.
* 3. you mentioned "anti-semitism" - while it exists in Ireland, notorious incidents like in 1904 when there was a pogrom against the Jews of that city - in the intervening years, while Ireland was no haven for European Jewry during the Nazi era, she has elected jews to some of the highest offices - Mayors of Dublin and Cork, to both bodies of the irish parliment - this considerering there are only a few thousand Irish Jews, with a population of 3-4 million.
So that proves Ireland has no history of anti-Semitism...how?
* 4. on Anti-Americanism I grant that there's some there, especially amoung the media and the other elites. However I don't think that people in countries other that the US spend there whole days worrying about the United States, they don't order their lives on what's going on 1000's of miles away.
What a straw man. When did I ever say they did?
What strikes me mostly about Irish people is how ignorant they are about the US. Just like lots of Americans in ignorant of other countries (not necessaily the worst thing, I don't agree that it's always wonderful to have lots of knowledge about every country on earth and little wisdom about you own life.)
That's nice but does nothing to disprove the attitudes of most Irish, which certainly isn;t reflected in American-supporting policy.
* 5. In WWII and the cold war Ireland was "neutral" but in effect Ireland was pro-allies and pro-west in both.
Bull***. Complete and utter BS.
For reasons of history Ireland was unable to side with Great Britain - 17 years after she had bombed and burned Cork, Dublin and other towns and cities - I think Ireland should have sided with the Allies, German Nazism being a much greater evil that Britism Imperalism, but I can understand it. After WWII neutrality continued, mostly because of the unresolved status of Northern Ireland. And while I agree that Ireland harbors some anti-Americanism - just like Seattle - it can surely be argued that the United States, at least historically, especially in the WASP class, harbored anti-Irishness!!
Wha...?
That's an awful lot of dancing to avoid the point. When has the U.S. acted against Ireland, other than taking in its immigrants in profusion and spending tourist dollars there? How about US investment in Ireland--one of our biggest investment targets in the EU? More anti-Irish attitudes by Americans?
You're arguing from an emotional position with no basis in fact--I said A so you are pushing back and saying B. But assertions are not facts.
Now that I've given you my personal responses, here's some backing material:
http://www.nuzhound.com/Irish_Eagle/articles/2003/jan31_anti-Americanism__Irish-Voice.php
"As Mike Farragher discovered (last week's Voice) nearly everyone in Ireland is opposed to war with Iraq.... For the most part Irish people simply do not believe that Saddam Hussein could possibly pose a threat to the US and that any American led war would be "immoral". The reason this is important is that for any American living here – or even just visiting – it is very easy to become dismayed when confronted by such attitudes.
"Obviously, there are no views being expressed in Ireland that are not also being expressed in the US, but the universality of the anti-war and, often anti-American sentiment would get any American's back up. Many of the views that are popular and mainstream here are only espoused by people on the fringes of American opinion.
"Anti-Americanism is in the air here, but most Irish people reject the notion that they're anti-American. Yet, they feel comfortable expressing views that can only be described as such. ....Irish-Americans may want to consider Irish attitudes before they make that extra effort to "buy Irish" or plan that next trip to Ireland."
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/seminars/IrishStudies/Sep_2004_minutes.htm
"Q. Many Americans going to Ireland are finding that people say that the U.S. used to be much more tolerant. The Irish are very strongly pro-Palestinian, and this affects the way they see the U.S. Some Americans feel insulted in Ireland now. Q. I travel to Ireland every year, and I certainly encountered a different atmosphere this year. Anti-Americanism is common. At other times I have almost felt like I was in just another American state, but not this year."
http://www.geocities.com/irelandvus911/MEDIABL2.htm
This one's a real winner:"September 16, 2001 The Sunday Independent (Brendan O'Connor) It started on RTÉ news the very night of the [attack], where some academic... pointed out that if he lived in despair in the Middle East he'd bomb America too. This was the first of many voices in the Irish media trotted on to give the line that America was "reaping the thorns of its foreign policy". It was neither the time nor the place to parade these views. But it didn't stop there."
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobinfo/europe/sefer.cgi?display:1030886330-15480.txt
(I thought this letter was pretty funny and a good example of unacknowledged stupidity--the writer even manages to get Pinochet in there)"I hope that you are fair enough to acknowledge that America has some problems and that not all anti-Americanism is wrong."
http://www.historyireland.com/magazine/features/13.3FeatA.html
"But, unlike these hypothetical collaborators, the IRA actually wanted a German invasion and was in a position for a period to physically assist one. That is the central problem that many still refuse to face up to."
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/nfo/article.cfm?id=1975
"October 26, 2004 Paris - Almost a year has elapsed since the Simon Wiesenthal Center urged President McAleese to withdraw the 2003 Irish Museum of the Year Award from the Hunt Museum of Limerick, due to the suspicious provenance of its collection."
http://www.irishexaminer.com/text/story.asp?j=82685569527&p=8z68557x3z8&n=82685570427
"The official attitude towards refugees was so hostile that the Irish Coordination Committee for Refugees was set up to moderate the callous hostility of the Departments of Justice and Industry and Commerce, but the new committee ruled that practicing Jews were ineligible for aid from Ireland. Jewish communities abroad were assumed to have sufficient resources to aid Jewish refugees."
That's not one state's rep, that's national policy.
I could go on, but like you I'm short on time.
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