Have you been following the Holloway story closely? Just curious.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news. We go live to Aruba, 58 long days since Natalee Holloway vanished into thin air. Investigators commence draining a local pond in the same area where Natalee was last seen alive. And tonight, a new witness, the gardener, gives police information leading them to this pond. And the clock is ticking. DNA testing under way at two crime labs a whole world a part, in the Hague, Netherlands, and Quantico, Virginia, FBI headquarters. The DNA testing of blonde hair found on duct tape, is this hair Natalee`s?
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace, and I want to thank you for being with us tonight.
Tonight, a man alleged to be this country`s most prolific serial child molester has notebooks detailing over 30,000 -- 30,000 -- secretly coded entries recounting sex acts on children spanning three decades. Tonight, Dean Schwartzmiller`s lawyer mounts a legal battle to have the case moved.
But first tonight, live to Aruba. Breaking news in the Natalee Holloway missing girl case. Stunning information from a local gardener leads authorities to drain a pond as we speak. The draining has commenced in an Aruba area very near a racket club, where the gardener says he observed a car with the Kalpoe brothers and the jailed judge`s son, Joran Van Der Sloot, parked around 2:30 in the morning the night Natalee disappeared.
Now, let me tell you, nothing good is happening at 2:30 in the morning.
And tonight, we`re standing by for DNA results on blonde hair found on duct tape on an Aruban beach. Tonight, from Meridian, Mississippi, Natalee`s stepmother Robin Holloway; in Aruba, editor of "Diario," Jossy Mansur; in Orange, California, defense attorney David Wohl; in Seattle, defense attorney Anne Bremner; in New York, clinical psychologist Dr. Patricia Saunders.
But first to WBMA reporter, Anastasiya Bolton. Anastasiya, bring us up-to-date, friend.
ANASTASIYA BOLTON, WBMA REPORTER COVERING STORY: Nancy, investigators in Aruba are draining the pond of a racket club as we speak. That just started moments ago. That information came from a gardener at the racket club who gave sworn statements to police over the weekend saying that he saw Joran Van Der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers in that car near the racket club at 2:30 in the morning the night Natalee Holloway disappeared.
Why they`re draining the pond, what they hope to find there? Sources tell us they may find a body there. They`re looking for a body there. That`s the latest from here.
GRACE: I want to quickly go to David Wohl. David, I`ve had cases where bodies were found in water, where we looked for evidence, for clues in water. Very, very difficult. You and I watched it in court in the Laci Peterson case, how difficult that is to find evidence in water.
Have you ever observed a body of water actually being drained or dredged?
DAVID WOHL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, Nancy, I haven`t. But I mean, you know what happens to bodies. We know what happened to Laci Peterson after she was in the water of San Francisco Bay for a while. There generally isn`t much left. That`s why DNA evidence is so critical here. I`m sure it will be here.
However, I don`t hold out a lot of hope. That gardener said he saw a car resembling the car that the boys were driving. And I don`t think the identification has been overly particular in this case.
So I got my fingers crossed for Natalee`s family, but I don`t know at this point. We`ll have to wait and see. It doesn`t seem to be certain.
GRACE: Well, I don`t know about you, but when he said -- when this gardener said -- correct me if I`m wrong and just jump in -- he saw not only the car parked over to the side of the road, because he nearly ran into it, but also, when he looked at the car, and the lights came around, Joran Van Der Sloot tried to hide his face, and the two Kalpoe brothers ducked down in the back of the seat.
Now, I don`t know about you, Anastasiya, but when I see people in a car all ducking down, that makes me look even more.
BOLTON: Nancy, all I can say that he gave sworn statements to police that he saw the three men that looked like the Kalpoe brothers and Joran Van Der Sloot in that car. So far, police tell us that his story is checking out, unlike Joran Van Der Sloot who, at this point, they say has given them 22 different accounts of what happened the night that Natalee Holloway disappeared.
GRACE: Hold on. That number, 22, stuck in my throat. Twenty-two different stories? Did I hear that?
BOLTON: Yes, you heard that correctly.
GRACE: Oh, Anne Bremner, Anne Bremner, veteran defense attorney, I guess you want to go hide under the table about right now. Twenty-two different statements -- let me cough it up here.
(LAUGHTER)
ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Nancy, I mean, that`s a problem. But 22...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I want your response.
(LAUGHTER)
Yes, that`s a problem. You`re darn right it`s a problem.
BREMNER: Sure, it is. But you know what, Nancy? They could be -- some of the stories could be kind of slightly different, slightly different.
But here`s the other thing. I mean, we talked about it before, and that`s corpus delicti. There`s no body; there`s no evidence. And so you can`t just convict someone on their words alone.
So that, as a defense attorney...
GRACE: So we`re going to give people a gold star, extra credit for hiding the body?
Hold on, very quickly to the editor of "Diario," joining us from Aruba, Jossy Mansur. Sir, thank you for being with us. I want to find out more about this gardener. What do you think of his story?
JOSSY MANSUR, EDITOR, "DIARIO": I`m totally convinced he`s telling the truth. He has no reason to invent a story. He`s not after money. The reward posts don`t say -- do not specify any reward for just any information of the three suspects.
I mean, the information is for Natalee being found alive, $1 million, or any information leading to the location -- or, in other words, to finding this girl in whatever shape she`s in, that`s $100,000. So he`s not after money.
GRACE: You are taking a look at some video that was just released on Friday of Natalee Holloway. Not only a beauty, as you can see with your own eyes, but an honor student, set to go to school to become a doctor.
Isn`t that right, Robin Holloway, she wanted to become a doctor?
ROBIN HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S STEPMOTHER: That`s right. From what she had told us, she wanted to be a pediatrician. I mean, she just had -- well, hopefully still does, just so much ahead of her. And she had the scholarship to University of Alabama, and she was so excited about her future.
And now, these videos, I mean, they`re so hard to watch. But everybody in the whole world can see just how beautiful, and vibrant, and wonderful she is, just...
GRACE: Well, the American dream, Robin, the American dream. Someone that made such great grades in high school, she had a full scholarship, telling the rest of us that, if you work hard enough, you can make it. I mean, this was a girl any parent, any family, would love to have.
Never a problem, great grades, just beaming with joy, beaming with vitality. Very quickly, take a listen to this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S FATHER: We`ve heard a lot of different rumors. I mean, when we got on the island, you know, we had a lot of information that, you know, she was here or there or whatever. And all those turned out to be false.
But, you know, we still hold on to the thread that maybe she`s off somewhere. That`s my hope. But the police investigation has always come back and indicated that they`re looking into this as a murder case. But, as a father and a parent, you still hold on to a possible miracle.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s right. The family still hoping for a miracle. It is day 58 in the disappearance of 18-year-old Natalee Holloway.
Back to Anastasiya Bolton. I want to go back to this gardener, because this is the first real lead we`ve gotten, other than Natalee was last seen with a judge`s son -- all we see of this judge, as I said many times, is his back side whenever we try to ask him questions -- and these other two, the Kalpoe brothers.
This is the first real lead we`ve gotten. And I want to ask you, Anastasiya, isn`t it true that, with the new arrangement with the FBI, the FBI got to sit in during his interrogation of this gardener?
BOLTON: My understanding is that the FBI is, indeed, now able to sit in on the interrogations. And, more importantly, as I understand it, they will be able to sit in on the interrogations of Joran Van Der Sloot.
They`re not able to ask questions, but the FBI is able to take a more active role in the investigation.
GRACE: And very quickly, Jossy, before we go break -- everyone, Jossy Mansur is with us. He is the editor of "Diario" there in Aruba. You say this guy, this gardener, has no reason to lie. And also, the circumstances of the way he saw these three, allegedly, how they all ducked down in the back of the car, and tried to hide their faces, why, Jossy, would they feel they had to hide their faces and hide, that they were parked there near that racket club?
MANSUR: Because they were trying to hide their faces at that the hour, because we have to remember that the two Kalpoe brothers and Joran held on to the statement that they dropped Joran off at the beach and then went home. But here we have someone that says categorically that they did not go home, they were in the car with Joran. Joran was sitting in the driver`s seat.
GRACE: And very quickly, as we go to break, Dr. Patricia Saunders, the fact that they were trying to hide from somebody they didn`t even know, I find highly, highly probative.
DR. PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it screams to consciousness of guilt, as does Mr. Joran changing his stories 22-plus times.
GRACE: Twenty-two times.
We`ll all be right back. We are live in Aruba and the latest in the search for Natalee Holloway. We have not given up yet.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: I think Jug and I are both thinking this week, you know, a lot of good things have been set into motion, from, you know, the FBI now beginning to have access, from declarations to audio and videotapes, you know, of course, this witness coming forward now. I mean, that`s encouraging.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE "JUG" TWITTY, STEPFATHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: I`ve had several incidents where I just have gone ballistic and I try to just keep my cool. And I`ve had several conversations with Van Der Straaten.
And everybody knows that Van Der Straaten and Jug do not see eye-to- eye, because, from the beginning, we just -- I just didn`t believe that they were doing enough. And that`s why I`m so excited about the new team that`s in there.
And I can already tell, being here a day-and-a-half, that some new things are happening.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The reward for Natalee Holloway`s safe return now up to $1 million, $100,000 reward for information on Natalee`s whereabouts. Take a look at that tip line, 877-628-2533.
Welcome back, everybody.
I want to go straight back to the editor of "Diario." He is with us from Aruba tonight, Jossy Mansur.
Now, Mr. Mansur, it`s my understanding that you actually found the gardener and had him go to authorities with his story.
MANSUR: That is correct, because we were searching for him for three- and-a-half weeks after we heard the rumor about the domino game in prison. And then we wanted to know his identity. And we searched and searched with a team that we have investigating this, Eduardo Mansur (ph) and (INAUDIBLE) and they finally found him last Friday.
And they did a lot of talking to him and reassured him that the paper will stand behind him, as well as nothing the police -- the police aren`t going to do anything to him. So he was finally convinced to go to the police.
He went at 7:00 at night. And he laid off his sworn testimony and signed it that same night.
GRACE: Now, what domino game behind bars?
MANSUR: That there was a domino game behind bars in which one of the Kalpoe brothers participated. And one other player in there yelled at him, "Listen, my gardener saw you at the racket club that early morning that Natalee disappeared."
He got very white. He threw the dominoes on the table and walked away. So that rumor started to filter out, because there were many other people present around that domino table. We found out about it. And we started a search for this gardener.
GRACE: Well, Jossy Mansur, that is a heck of a story. And apparently he is believable because, as we speak, the pond near where the gardener says he saw Van Der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers parked around 2:30 a.m. near this racket club is being drained.
Back to Jossy Mansur with "Diario." Tell me about the gardener. Who did he work for? Why did he happen to be there that night at 2:30 a.m.? And how close was the car to this pond?
MANSUR: You know, he`s a gardener of a friend of ours that we know very well. And that night, it was very hot in his apartment, as it has been hot all this week in Aruba. And he left his own apartment to go this house where he works as a gardener, where he has an air-conditioned room.
And when he passed by the racket club, there was a car blocking the road. It`s a dirt road that goes around where the water is being drained now. And for him to be able to pass this car, he had to climb a little mount that was by the car.
He was very close to it, less than a yard away. And when he looked inside the car, he saw these three people that he identified was the many folders that have come out in the "Diario."
GRACE: And when he saw the three of them, what, if anything, did they do?
MANSUR: One of them -- the one that was sitting behind the driver`s seat, which was Joran, threw his hands across his face to hide from him. And the other two ducked.
GRACE: The other two were in the back seat?
MANSUR: One in the back seat, one in the front seat. Both ducked, so as not to be seen by him.
GRACE: And how close was this car to this pond that is being drained as we speak?
MANSUR: Very close. Very close. A few yards away.
GRACE: I want to go back to that domino game you told us about. We`re showing video right now, Mr. Mansur, of the pond. It is being drained right now, based largely on what this gardener has told police there in Aruba. It`s going down right now.
Back to this domino game. Who was playing dominoes with the Kalpoe brother, and how did you find out about it?
MANSUR: Because his gardener told him through his father. He`s a young fellow. His father visits him in jail. He`s there for the possession of some kind of illegal arm, nothing serious. And then they were playing there with four people, four people play domino. And some onlookers around them.
And then this happened when he confronted Kalpoe, one of the Kalpoe brothers with this fact. Then the guy got mad. He became pale, threw the dominoes, and walked away. So it`s an abnormal reaction to some kind of finger-pointing at him.
GRACE: You know, David Wohl, what would we do without jailhouse confessions, jailhouse acting-out? I mean, come on, you`re playing a game of cards and somebody says, "I know what you did," you throw down your cards, stomp away, turn white.
WOHL: You know, it sounds almost too good to be true.
GRACE: Oh, there you go.
WOHL: You know these jailhouse rats. The problem is their credibility is sometimes brought into question by defense lawyers like Anne Bremner. So I don`t know, but it`s very interesting.
And the problem is, it doesn`t add up to me. I mean, these boys ducking down as he`s -- you know, why would they know that he would think that they had just murdered someone and dumped them in a pond? I mean, there`s some kind of disconnect here I`m not quite tuning into.
GRACE: David Wohl, have you just lost your mind? Whenever anyone is guilty, they try to hide it. They know they`ve done something wrong.
Question to you -- I`d appreciate a concise answer -- who is the rat? The gardener wasn`t behind bars. So who`s the rat in this scenario?
WOHL: Well, the person who brought it up to the boys when they were in there, "My gardener saw you guys" -- I don`t know. I just I`m not buying it, Nance. I`m not buying it.
GRACE: You don`t like it. And I think I know why you don`t like it.
To Dr. Patricia Saunders, give me your take on this, Doctor.
SAUNDERS: I think this could be a potential blockbuster in the case. What`s so telling is that the kid turned white. That`s an automatic response that says...
GRACE: Involuntary. Involuntary response.
SAUNDERS: It`s involuntary. And it says, "I am in deep trouble. I am guilty."
GRACE: The thing that`s concerning me, Anastasiya, is the proximity of the car to the pond. Anastasiya, what do we know that would link the three of them not just to the car, at 2:30 in the morning at that location, but to something being in the pond? Is there some other information about the pond that we don`t know, Anastasiya?
BOLTON: At this point, no other information has been released. But we do know that the pond is a quarter of a mile away from the Marriott each, where Joran Van Der Sloot said that he last left Natalee Holloway. He says he left her alive and well.
Again, the racket club is right in between the Marriott and the Holiday Inn where Natalee was staying.
GRACE: Jossy, question about the pond. What in the gardener`s statement has led police to drain this pond?
MANSUR: The fact that he identified these three suspects in the Kalpoe`s car at that hour, between 2:30 and 3:00, at that particular place. We have to remember that Joran is a member of the racket clubs. He knows that area very well, from the palm of his hand.
And we have to remember also that Joran confessed to the police on the 13th of June that, at 2:00 that same morning, he went to the beach to the north of the Marriott Hotel with Natalee.
GRACE: So he is a member, his family is a member, of the racket club. And we`ve caught him in another lie, bottom line.
MANSUR: Of course, we caught him in a lie, because, not only him, but the Kalpoe brothers also, because they claim they dropped him off there at 2:00 and then went home.
But they were with him, because in a further statement to the police on the 13th of June, Joran said that Deepak Kalpoe walked back to the beach where he had left Natalee asleep and then he didn`t hear anything more. Then, at the end, when the police asked him what he thought happened between Deepak and Natalee, he said, "I think he raped her and then murdered her."
This is from the police records.
GRACE: Joran Van Der Sloot said a Kalpoe brother raped her and murdered her?
MANSUR: Yes, he said that of Deepak. He mentioned Deepak in that statement.
GRACE: With us from Aruba, the editor of "Diario," Jossy Mansur.
We`ll all be right back.
GRACE: Natalee Holloway, she was a dancer at her high school. Having fun like every other teenager in town, it looks like. Here we go.
Very quickly, I want to go out to Natalee`s stepmother, Robin Holloway. With us, Robin, had you heard the startling revelation that, in one of his many statements, Joran Van Der Sloot blame a Kalpoe brother for murder?
R. HOLLOWAY: At one time, we had heard that he made the initial confession or said that something bad happened and Deepak helped bury her. But until Jossy said that, I had not heard that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
T.J. WARD, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR HIRED BY NATALEE`S FAMILY: And I went door to door today in the racquetball club and was able to locate another witness who described the vehicle in question, owned by the Kalpoe boys, and they were able to tell me and describe clearly the car in question being in the area and in the racquet club around the homes about six weeks ago, which would estimate somewhere after the 29th and 30th of May.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Natalee`s family has hired this private investigator to literally go door to door asking for help in the Natalee Holloway case.
Welcome back, everybody. Very quickly, back to Natalee`s stepmother. Robin, I`m sorry. We got cut off when we went to break. I know that you`re aware, as we all are, that Joran Van Der Sloot, the judge`s son, has changed his story now allegedly 22 times about Natalee`s disappearance. But have you ever heard that he directly named a Kalpoe brother as having raped and murdered Natalee?
ROBIN HOLLOWAY, NATALEE`S STEPMOTHER: No. That makes me sick. I mean, just -- no, I had not heard that until this show right now, so -- that`s hard to comprehend. And just -- and, yes, it`s -- if that`s the case, I mean, I don`t understand why they`re not in custody, why they`re not interrogating them, too. I mean, just -- I just feel like those three hold a lot of answers, I mean, not just Joran, but all three need to be questioned.
GRACE: Well, you have been saying that from the get-go, along with the rest of Natalee`s family.
Back to Jossy Mansur, the editor of "Diario." We understand tonight that Joran Van Der Sloot, the judge`s son, has changed his story up to 22 times. What are the different stories, Jossy, that he has given?
MANSUR: From what I understand, he gives varied answers to the same questions, but not with too much of a difference, but he keeps changing. For example, on one time, he says to the police that he left the girl on the beach and went away because she wanted to walk back to the hotel, the Holiday Inn. On another occasion, he said that he left her asleep there. Then on another occasion, he said that she got sick and he left her on the beach. So it keeps changing, but not with a variation that is very noticeable.
GRACE: Jossy, didn`t at one point he said he left her at the Holiday Inn and she was walking in and stumbled, and two -- a security guard tried to help her? Then later, he said he left her at the Marriott out on the beach?
MANSUR: Oh, the story goes on and on and on. Sure. He said that -- the first time that they spoke about this was that they left her at the Holiday Inn. She got out of the car and she stumbled. Two security guards came over. He even described the uniforms that they had. That`s why these two people were picked up by the police for questioning and then released, because they were innocent. But he keeps changing his story all the time, with some variations.
GRACE: And I want to go to Anastasiya Bolton with WBMA-TV. Anastasia, have you heard about this startling accusation by Joran Van Der Sloot, directly pointing the finger at Deepak Kalpoe as not only a rapist but a killer?
BOLTON: Nancy, we have not been able to confirm the statement, but Joran Van Der Sloot and the brothers have repeatedly turned on each other in this case. And again, remember, Joran has changed the story 22 times. So what is to say that this story may not be true?
GRACE: So you had heard the story but couldn`t confirm it?
BOLTON: We have not heard this story and we have not been able to confirm it. But like I said, Joran Van Der Sloot has changed his story so many times, so I question the validity of it...
GRACE: Well, this is...
BOLTON: ... until we`re able to confirm it.
GRACE: This is what I don`t understand, Jossy Mansur. With an allegation like that by Joran Van Der Sloot, even though he`s a liar, why did they let the Deepak -- the Kalpoe brothers go?
MANSUR: Oh, that`s the $64,000 question. It`s been going on and on in my mind also. I don`t think they should have let them go. I`ve said that many times before. I think should have been held -- at least Deepak should have been held in custody and questioned and questioned all over again.
And I can confirm that Joran said this about Deepak. I can confirm it because there are police records that have it. It`s signed -- these records are signed by four officers present when he made that statement, under oath.
GRACE: And Jossy, how have you learned what is the content of the police records? I thought prosecutors were keeping them so secret.
MANSUR: Well, you know, I`ve been in this business for 33 years. "Diario" (INAUDIBLE) for the past 25 years as the number-one-selling newspaper on the island. During that time, we create credibility and we create contacts. And we have our bunch of contacts with every, every single organization on the island. So we`re in a position to know.
GRACE: Jossy, how has this affected tourism there in Aruba? The Alabama legislature has called for a boycott on tourism to Aruba.
MANSUR: Well, that`s their privilege of doing, I mean, but it hasn`t affected the island at all. Absolutely not. Ever since this case began -- and I am so sorry that it happened here on the island. It`s a very unique case with a high profile. But we`ve seen tourism as strong and as frequent and as voluminous as always.
GRACE: Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE`S FATHER: I`m thrilled that the FBI is now involved. This gives another set of eyes to look at what`s going on. Every time you add something to the scales, it`s going to -- you know, it adds up. You know, something is better than nothing. And so far, we`ve really had nothing. So the more you add to it, the better case you build.
What good is this gardener? Well, he`s a witness, and maybe he has some information that will help us narrow down the timeline and, hopefully, find the haystack. And if we can find the haystack, we can find the needle.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Anne Bremner -- it always hurts -- always hurts -- when your client gives conflicting statements. And I find it very interesting that they`ve kept Van Der Sloot in and let the Kalpoe brothers go.
BREMNER: Right. I mean, it`s, like -- well, one thing I thought of, Nancy, is -- although I`m defense -- mostly defense -- you know, a finger pointing away from yourself often is a finger pointing at yourself. Maybe that`s what they`re thinking. Why did they let the other two go? I can`t imagine, with this particular statement, 1 of 22 or 1 of 10 or whatever it is, it is evidence in the case. And it would seem to point away, actually, from Van Der Sloot in this case and toward the others.
GRACE: Robin Holloway, I`m confounded that they let the Kalpoe brothers go. Now, did they -- are they telling -- are authorities telling the family what is in these police reports that Jossy Mansur is telling us about?
ROBIN HOLLOWAY: No. I mean -- well, as far as -- I mean, Beth is there in Aruba, and she`s maybe in closer contact. But as for as Dave and myself, no, we had not heard this version of his latest lie or statement. I mean, last time I talked to Dave, we had counted 15 lies he had told. I did not realize it was up to 22 now.
GRACE: And Robin, what are the lies that you`re aware of?
ROBIN HOLLOWAY: Oh, well, I guess it started -- he said he dropped her off at the Holiday Inn. That changed to north of the Marriott. And didn`t he say Deepak was with him and then he needed a ride? And -- I don`t -- there`s so many.
GRACE: So, so many.
Everyone, breaking news tonight. A pond near where the gardener says he saw the judge`s son and the Kalpoe brothers parked 2:30 AM is being drained as we speak.
To Jossy Mansur with "Diario." So this pond is on the property of the racquet club?
MANSUR: It`s right beside it, yes.
GRACE: Who does it belong to?
MANSUR: Between the racquet club and the main road.
GRACE: Does it belong to anyone? Whose is it?
MANSUR: I don`t think it belongs to anyone. I think it belongs to the government.
GRACE: So they didn`t have to get authority to drain it. How long is this process going to take, Jossy?
MANSUR: Possibly three or four or five hours, or until early morning. But it will be done tonight.