Natalee Holloway - Case Discussion Extended Thread 7

Let me get this straight: Rudy Croes had sex slaves??

I think he's buying time by throwing so many stories out there. I truly believe that Van der Statten and Ben Vocking have told him and Paulus to sit tight that this will be over in a couple of months. Of course, Joran can write off his college career in the US or Holland. Maybe he'll be able to attend the University of Suriname.

Oh and CG, I believe it's as Southern thing, you know,
"If you don't have anything good to say about someone...
then you come and sit by me!" :-)
TAW

'The Abrams Report' for July 14

Hi everyone.

First up on the docket tonight, the lead suspect in the Aruba disappearance of Alabama teen Natalee Holloway will remain in prison. Just hours ago an appeals court there issued a decision saying this about Joran van der Sloot's appeal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY'S FATHER: Best case scenario would be that all of them were put back in jail and they were able to renew or begin the interrogation process again to get the answers. They know the answers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ABRAMS: OK, that was the wrong piece of sound. That's the father there talking about it.

Brothers Satish and Deepak Kalpoe, arrested along with van der Sloot but released last week, remain free. The prosecution lost its appeal to have them rearrested.

Joining me now with the latest is NBC's Michelle Kosinski.

Michelle, before I go to you, let me do this. I want to play a piece of sound from the court clerk because we missed a piece of sound there. If you can either . . .

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: No problem.

ABRAMS: If we can put - let's play a piece of sound from the court clerk talking about the ruling today.

OK. We don't have it.

Michelle, I was surprised that the court is being so specific in its statements about comments made by Joran van der Sloot in the context of this investigation.

KOSINSKI: Right. That was interesting. That surprised us too. There were some details. But when you look at it, it really doesn't lend a whole lot more information than we already knew about this case.

Now telling you more about what happened today also. The family of Natalee Holloway described their reaction to all this as a big sigh of relief. They didn't even get everything they wanted. All three of those suspects are not still in jail but that key suspect, Joran van der Sloot, still is.

So he is still the suspect that remains behind bars. The court said basically, here's this serious suspicion against him that does not exist with the Kalpoe brothers. Those are the guys, you remember, who said they dropped off Joran and Natalee on a beach the morning she disappeared. There's obviously not enough evidence to keep them in jail.

And the court really delineated that. They describe the words as serious suspicion. They hold that toward Joran van der Sloot but not the Kalpoe brothers. Even though there were some similarities in the way they described all suspects. Here's how the court of appeals describes it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ISELLA WERNET, COURT CLERK: The serious objections against the suspect consist of the fact that's, until briefly, before the disappearance of Natalee Holloway, he was in her company and gave varying statements about what happened then and afterwards.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOSINSKI: So the court of appeals rejected all five appeals that came before those judges. Joran van der Sloot's appeal to get out of jail, rejected. At the same time, they rejected prosecutors' appeal to put those Kalpoe boys back in jail.

But it was interesting. As you said, we got a little detail. The court described, basically, the situation as virtually the same for all three suspects. That all three of them spent some time with Natalee shortly before she disappeared. That all three suspects gave statements that seemed to change over time. The difference is that serious suspicion that they used in relation to Joran van der Sloot. The court said, it wants to keep him in jail to sort out his statements to try to get to the bottom of his story.

ABRAMS: Just so I'm clear . . .

KOSINSKI: And the Kalpoe's - just, there's no justification there.

ABRAMS: All right. Michelle, just so we're clear. The court is says that all three of them made inconsistent statements?

KOSINSKI: Absolutely.

ABRAMS: All right.

KOSINSKI: That all three of them made statements that changed over time. But still, that suspicion wasn't there to - and enough of an extent to keep the Kalpoe boys in jail but certainly was for Joran van der Sloot. So, once again, the appeals court is affirming that there is more evidence against Joran than the other boys.

ABRAMS: Michelle Kosinski, thanks very much. Appreciate it.

All right. For a sense of - oh, do we have Natalee's family's attorney? Arlene. OK. Arlene Ellis-Schipper is an attorney there in Aruba and she joins us now.

Thanks very much for coming on the program. We appreciate it.

Let me play you a piece of sound. I'm going to try and get this piece of sound ready. This is the court clerk talking about some of Joran's statements and then I want to ask you about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WERNET: The investigation requires that the preventive court, that the appeal of the suspect against a ruling of the investigative judge of July 4th is unfounded because the serious objections and the grounds upon which this ruling is based are still valid.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ABRAMS: All right. It's one of those days, Arlene. Let me read you the piece - the quote I was looking for. “The investigation requires that the custody be continued because the subject recently retracted earlier statements again and that further investigation is required to verify the exactitude of the most recent statement in connection with all the other statements.”

So it sounds like what they're saying is, yeah, OK, all three of the guys have made inconsistent statements but we need to keep Joran van der Sloot behind bars because we need to sort out his inconsistent statements more than we do some of the others?

ARLENE ELLIS-SCHIPPER, ARUBAN ATTORNEY: No, that is not as I perceive this. What I understand is that Joran van der Sloot has changed on numerous times his declarations. And that appears to be lying. That - in Dutch you'd say (INAUDIBLE), means appearing to be lying.

From what I know from the Deepak brothers is that in the first instance, all three boys had the same story and then changed it and withdrawal their first declaration. So, indeed, they have changed their story. But after that, they maintained the same story.

ABRAMS: But still, I mean, basically what you are say is, that it sounds like Joran van der Sloot changed his story more than the Kalpoe brothers is what the court's saying?

ELLIS-SCHIPPER: Not only did he change it more often, it was confirmed from what was - from the prosecutor in the office that Joran van der Sloot, at one point, admitted that he was the last one to be with Natalee Holloway and not the Deepak brothers. So you have to take that into account as well. You have a time line here where you have first the three boys with Natalee, then the two boys leaving the couple at the beach. So that time line puts him in more suspicion.

ABRAMS: What - I was sort of surprised at one of the comments made by Satish Kalpoe's attorney. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, my client is still a suspect in the case, so none of that changes. And basically he can still be tried in about two years. Based on jurisprudence, he should be tried within in two years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ABRAMS: So let's be clear, Arlene. What we're saying here is that all three of them are still suspects. The prosecutors may still decide to charge all three of them. But when it comes to keeping them behind bars now, the court is saying, you can't keep the Kalpoe brothers, you can keep van der Sloot.

ELLIS-SCHIPPER: Yes, you have to keep in mind that this is a pretrial detention. This - they have not been summoned to court. In your legal terms, charged. So you have to have grounds to keep someone in pretrial detention. And that is the assessment of what the judges have made today and the court decided that there was, at this point in the case, simply not enough grounds, not enough serious objections against their release.

ABRAMS: Arlene Ellis-Schipper, as always, thanks very much for coming on the program. Appreciate it.

ELLIS-SCHIPPER: Thank you.

ABRAMS: All right. For a sense of how Natalee's family is handling the news, I'm joined once again by Benvinda de Sousa, an Aruban attorney with has been hired by Natalee's family.

Thanks for coming back on the program. We appreciate it.

BENVINDA DE SOUSA, NATALEE HOLLOWAY'S FAMILY'S ATTORNEY: Thank you for having me.

ABRAMS: All right. So the family had wanted the Kalpoe brothers rearrested. The court is saying that is not going to happen and yet they also wanted Joran van der Sloot to remain behind bars. That will happen. How are they reacting to the news?

DE SOUSA: Well, they are very pleased that Mr. van der Sloot is being kept behind bars. They had, of course, hoped that the two Kalpoe brothers would be rearrested. But they do understand that if an independent panel of three judges decides that for now there is not enough evidence to keep them behind bars. They accept it.

ABRAMS: Let me play the piece of sound from the court clerk I was trying to play earlier. This is talking about some of Joran's statements.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WERNET: The investigation requires that the preventive custody is continued because the suspect recently retracted earlier statements again and that further investigation is required to verify the exactitude of the most recent statement in connection with all the other statements of the suspect without the suspect having the opportunity to influence the investigation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ABRAMS: Was that news to you, Benvinda?

DE SOUSA: About what?

ABRAMS: About the fact that they're coming out and saying publically that Joran made statements, retracted them, that further investigation is needed to verify the exact - they're basically saying that he lied. I mean, there were reports about it. There were conflicting reports. But the first time we've heard it from the court.

DE SOUSA: Oh, he's been lying from day one and that's one of the facts that's been held against him. He obviously has admitted to being the last person with Natalee and that, in combination with the fact that he has been changing his statements continuously, is one of the main reasons for keeping him in custody.

ABRAMS: What about the Kalpoe brothers? I mean it sounds like the court is also saying that they've offered some inconsistent statements.

DE SOUSA: Yes. But as my - as Mrs. Arlene Ellis-Schipper just said a little while ago, they have changed their statements but the last statement that they gave has been very consistent. They did not change the statement that they dropped off Joran van der Sloot at the beach.

ABRAMS: What happens now? I mean there's a 60-day period that they can hold van der Sloot if the continue the investigation?

DE SOUSA: Yes, it's a 60-day period. And they will continue with the investigation. That has been confirmed.

ABRAMS: Family going to stick around?

DE SOUSA: Yes, we're going to stick around.

ABRAMS: You're certainly going to be there, but do you expect the Twitty and Holloway families to remain as well?

DE SOUSA: Yes. Yes. When I say we're going to stick around, I mean the Twitty family is going to stick around.

ABRAMS: All right.

All right, Benvinda de Sousa, as once again, thank you very much for coming on the program. Please send our regards to the Twitty family.

DE SOUSA: I will. Thank you very much.

What I've learned about 17 yr. old
joran.....he's lived the life of
a 40 yr. old. Drinking, sex,
& heaven knows what else.

According to Diario. The person that posted this is the second to post that the vds are staying with Ben King, that's the important part.

Ok, TK, you just had to post a picture of Ellis-Schipper didn't you? Where's NSNR?

Thanks monkeywrench. Is that suppose to be on RW somewhere?

Thanks for the correction. That's the second time I've watched H&C and I had a 50-50 chance of picking the right name. And my success rate was on par for me - that's one of the reasons I don't gamble. *g

Ever notice that Ellis-Schipper usually says things like;

"But that is not the Dutch system.... The Dutch system works very well...... Dutch law isn't like your system in the United States...." Blah, blah, blah.

Like she's programed.

Yes, but I got it off SM. Someone else just posted that Dan has new info he's going to share late tonight on Depak. I'll go try to find it.

Yes. A Suzuki, IIRC. Can't remember what the other car is or the color.

From RW under "Patience Stinks"

"This evening I hope to finalize and present some solid information on at least two phone calls in the early AM of the night / day of Natalee Holloway's disappearance. I've had the information for some time but opted not to say much about it until now for good reason."

Additionally, I have other information from one confirmed and reliable source with knowledge of what happened on the ground in Aruba that night, now corroborated - particularly as regards activities in and around Carlos and Charlies that night which paints a somewhat different picture from what many have been thinking and discussing."

" At least some of that information goes to why I have never fully accepted Joran v d Sloot's independent guilt in this tragic matter and have never taken my eye off of Deepak Kalpoe"

I said a few weeks back that they all act like robots or something. Mariane Croes probably was replaced because her voice chip was wearing out. The Stepford Island.

They ALL sound programmed, don't they DJ. AND I suspect they are all enjoying the spotlight by now. Cajungirl, I wasn't putting OUR forum down with the "cooler heads" comment. Quite the contrary..I meant it to be a compliment.

I'll be back tonight..If you'all get a chance, watch Nancy Grace this evening.

later, sw

What I've learned about 17 yr. old joran.....he's lived the life of a 40 yr. old. Drinking, sex, & heaven knows what else.

The way it is starting to sound and if what the buzz is true Joran may have serious psychological problems that have not properly been attended to. Maybe it is hereditary (Paulus, Lorenzo, Joran.

So what happened next, I can only fill in the blanks, but I suppose that Deepak was waiting in the car, and she may have thought it was a taxi because all the taxis around here, all they have in them is a small yellow tag up on the dash that says "Taxi." And then furthermore, I understand that the Satish boy may have entered the car after Natalee and the other guys were already in the vehicle.

So Joran originally goes home around 11:00 that night and calls the brothers who go over to his place and hang around a bit before heading to C & Cs. (I have heard differing reports if they went into the bar with Joran.) Then Deepak picks them up and Satish may have entered the vehicle after Natalee?

There is an orchestration and deliberation about this whole thing that keeps saying to me that nothing about this is accidental or some innocent fun gone bad. Forgetting Joran and his pathology for a minute...what was in this for the brothers? If Joran just wanted to pick up a girl, he didn't need the brothers to wait. If he was going to pick up a girl for all of them, would they be back home within an hour? If something had gone wrong and Natalee was hurt would they leave Joran?

or...Sean's the cute smart one...Alan's not *laughing* Hey if other people can think the cell phone guy from Aruba is good looking, I'll admit that I watch Hannity and Colmes in part because it's nice to see Sean.

Ok, TK, you just had to post a picture of Ellis-Schipper didn't you? Where's NSNR?

It was intentional. I did it just for you guys. :)

Thanks! I'll try to find a good picture of Charles Croes or was it Rueben?

Not only does he have psychological problems, but he's a spoiled rotten brat. The way he spoke to Beth that first night. Spoiled rotten! IMO leads to "psychological problems."