Natalee Holloway - Case Discussion Extended Thread 7

Gary, I had also read, heard somewhere that some students stated the shoving match never happened. There are alot of conflicting statements in this case. Maybe some things are just internet talk and things get mixed up.

I have a daughter-in-law that has Asthma & she doesn't go anywhere w/out her inhaler.

The people I know that have inhalers don't go anywhere without them either.

Are you talking about the code site that also has tarrot cards at the bottom? I was talking to my mom and brother and--my mom's response was a laugh and she told me "the bible code isn't from the King James, it's from Hebrew" someone's pulling a leg.

I have heard about the code, done NO studying on my own, but thought her take on it was interesting.

Interesting- can the "usual" date-rape drugs be detected in a postmortem exam? That would explain why JVDS or the brothers did not attempt to spin any death as accidental, which otherwise would seem to be a better course for them than this mess- no prosecution as of yet, but a good part of the planet convinced of their guilt.

The people I know that have inhalers don't go anywhere without them either.

Especially when it's humid & it's very humid in Aruba.

According to the aunt, they were in her bag.

According to the aunt, they were in her bag.

And didn't Beth find the bag in the hotel room?

From what I've read, those drugs go through and out your system too quickly to be detected.

Hey Gary and all you other guys on this thread. Can you imagine seeing a 5'2" girl being hit with a closed fist by a 6'5" man and you not beating the crap out of the guy? What kind of guy would say pick on somebody your own size and take it outside? I just can't imagine this story being true. Maybe it is, but I can't believe it.

Can you please direct me to a way that I may share kind words with them? It would mean a great deal to me...

I read somewhere that telltale signs of some date rape drugs are excreted quickly from the body, making detection impossible after just a few hours.

Please don't be mean spirited. If you are not interested, don't participate. FR is filled with many very intelligent people I'd want in my corner if I had a serious problem. To me, it is amazing that any question you can possibly think of, someone has the answer. So just move along and leave everyone alone. Take your bad mood out on someone else.

Yes. Maybe her asthma wasn't as servere as some. Maybe she didn't plan to be gone that long. Who knows?

From Aruba Bulletin Board:

Weed

Member   Join Date: June 14th, 2005
Location: Alexandria VA
Posts: 69

Re: natalee--facts and rumors

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This is the last day you can get Aruba AM online for free. Article in today's issue about Tim Miller's group suposedly finding some bones in the sand, which authorities say are animal bones. Article says Tim Miller is nice and smiling to Arubans, then goes on Larry King live and says he's "mad" and isn't going to leave. What was with the "hole" they found in the sand, according to Greta's report last night (I was in the laundry room when part of this segment aired). Tim said some guy approached his group and said to look someplace nearby. Miller claimed this was a "grave' where a body had been temporarily, then moved. Aruban authorities than used sifters to look for evidence. Not really scientific/effecient if what you're looking for are trace evidence (insects, fragments of flesh, hairs). Posts on riehlworld.com slammed the police on this. But is this another red herring? Someone having fun with Miller and the police?

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Gary

Posts: 49

Re: natalee--facts and rumors

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Sandra

Wrong. Dutch law works according to the "ne bis in idem" principle. That means that you cannot be convicted or tried for the same crime twice. If they retried this person for a second time the prosecutor was very creative and tried him for another crime. So let's say in this case the try someone for murder, and the suspect goes not guilty, they cannot drag him to court for a second time for murder if new evidence shows up. They can however drag him to court for manslaughter or a lesser charge.

Sandra, wrong. Double jeopardy is possible in Aruba. Here's how:

SIMON: In fact, if they're charged, they'll appear in front of a single judge and be tried. If convicted, they have the right to a trial de novo, which, in effect, means a do over, and have a trial in front of a three-judge panel. However, that may seem helpful to the defense. On the other hand, if they are acquitted at the single judge trial, the government can appeal -- something that could not happen here.

HEMMER: Well, this is pretty -- before we get too far down the line, you're saying judges have a lot of power in Aruba, don't they?

SIMON: Absolutely.

HEMMER: And also, if you're going to go ahead for a second trial, though, are you saying essentially you can be tried twice for the same crime, which is what we call, what, double jeopardy here in the U.S.?

SIMON: Right. We have double jeopardy protections, and they do too in certain limited instances. But their system operates differently. And now we shouldn't pre-judge theirs as being worse or better than ours, it's just different. And their system, as I said, they do not have jury trials. They do not have trials, as we know them.

But a person, if charged, will appear in front of a single judge. They will still have the same standard of being proven beyond a reasonable doubt as to all the elements. But a single judge will render judgment of guilt or non-guilt. However, if the person is found guilty, they can then ask for a new trial, in fact, a do over. On the other hand, the government can ask for a do over.

HEMMER: Yes, if there's an acquittal, the government can go back, we want to do it again. I think that's very interesting and a big difference from our law here in the U.S.

SIMON: That's a big difference. And after that three-judge trial, either party could appeal to the Hague in the Netherlands for questions of law.

HEMMER: Which is essentially the U.S. Supreme Court there.

[In other words, there can be a third trial based on questions of law. The only thing I don't know is whether there are time limits on the two appeals and retrials and what those time limits are.]

Source: http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/10/simon/

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary

Sandra, wrong. Double jeopardy is possible in Aruba. Here's how:

SIMON: In fact, if they're charged, they'll appear in front of a single judge and be tried. If convicted, they have the right to a trial de novo, which, in effect, means a do over, and have a trial in front of a three-judge panel. However, that may seem helpful to the defense. On the other hand, if they are acquitted at the single judge trial, the government can appeal -- something that could not happen here.

HEMMER: Well, this is pretty -- before we get too far down the line, you're saying judges have a lot of power in Aruba, don't they?

SIMON: Absolutely.

HEMMER: And also, if you're going to go ahead for a second trial, though, are you saying essentially you can be tried twice for the same crime, which is what we call, what, double jeopardy here in the U.S.?

SIMON: Right. We have double jeopardy protections, and they do too in certain limited instances. But their system operates differently. And now we shouldn't pre-judge theirs as being worse or better than ours, it's just different. And their system, as I said, they do not have jury trials. They do not have trials, as we know them.

But a person, if charged, will appear in front of a single judge. They will still have the same standard of being proven beyond a reasonable doubt as to all the elements. But a single judge will render judgment of guilt or non-guilt. However, if the person is found guilty, they can then ask for a new trial, in fact, a do over. On the other hand, the government can ask for a do over.

HEMMER: Yes, if there's an acquittal, the government can go back, we want to do it again. I think that's very interesting and a big difference from our law here in the U.S.

SIMON: That's a big difference. And after that three-judge trial, either party could appeal to the Hague in the Netherlands for questions of law.

HEMMER: Which is essentially the U.S. Supreme Court there.

[In other words, there can be a third trial based on questions of law. The only thing I don't know is whether there are time limits on the two appeals and retrials and what those time limits are.]

Source: http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/10/simon/

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Sandra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary

Sandra, wrong. Double jeopardy is possible in Aruba. Here's how:

I will tell my parents that they paid for six years study that was worth shit. I will tell my professors (who were all judges and lawyers) that Americans know better how your justice system and laws work and what they told me is a bunch of crap. I'm sure they will appreciate it.

So one more time. DOUBLE JEOPARDY IS NOT POSSIBLE UNDER DUTCH LAW!!!!!!!!!!

If you don't believe me, here an excerpt from the website of the Ministry of Justice in holland:

The so-called ne bis in idem-principle (no-one will be tried twice for the same crime) means that, in principle, the validity of an irrevocable decision made by a judge is inviolable. This is in the interests of the legal certainty of the person being prosecuted, preventing a second punishment for the same crime and in the interests of the authority of legal decisions.

This was written in a letter from our Minister of Justice in Holland. You'd think that he knows what he is talking about. Oh wait, he does.

I am really getting very angry here at this moment. I could give you 200 websites about how double jeopardy does not apply in the Dutch law but they would all be in dutch, which you can't read. Just take it from me (and millions of dutch people who have studied law) you are wrong and we are right. Okay?

Who do you think would know their own law better. You or me? I even knew about the ne bis in idem principle on which our entire law system is based even before I went to law school. Just ask any dutch person on the street and they will all give you the same answer.

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bentrees

Posts: 230

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In fairness, the post that Gary posted was from CNN's website....their international law expert , a guy named Theodore Simon.

This is the same site that I had read. Here it is again:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/10/simon/

If this angers people, it sounds like the "legal interpretation" disputes/letters should be drirected at Theodore rather than those who relied on this site's interpretation.

The conversation that Gary laid out is directly from this link.

So, Sandra, are you saying that this Theodore Simon , a guy CNN calls a "International Law Expert" is just flat wrong??

If so, it seems that any ire you or others may have at his misinterpretation should be directed at this "CNN expert" in my opinion.

Is this supposed expert just incorrect? (serious question-because what he says does conflict with what you are saying.....is he just ill-informed?)

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Sandra

Posts: 366

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Well then Simon is an idiot. What bothered me most about what Simon says is this: We have double jeopardy protections, and they do too in certain limited instances.

Our entire justice system is built on the ne bis in idem principle which means you canNOT be tried twice for the same crime. So we have double jeopardy protection all the way, not in certain limited instances.

The guy just does not know what he is talking about or he is wording it really, really, really bad.

Actually, for the islands, Aruba is generally not very humid.

I have to agree with you. This allegation just doesn't "compute".

Mark for (possible) later reading before I go home.

(Last night I accidentally cut through the buried cable that provides my internet access. It won't be fixed until Saturday at which point I'm out of town until Wednesday evening with No Connectivity.) :-(

I lived in Caracas and it was dripping w/humidity.

Lived on salt tablets.

I would have broken Joran's arm if I had seen him hit her. That said, there are a lot of unknowns.

Let's remember that C&C's is very, very crowded and wild...very wild. The have a dancing contest for couples, and the winners are the ones who can mimic the most sexual postions. What are people going to be watching? It's loud, packed, and people are close together. If Natalee and Joran were close, and it appears that might be the case seeing she reportedly pushed him away, then it might be he pulled his punch. It would not have been a serious blow, otherwise he would have knocked her across the room. Additionally, we do not know the gender of the witnesses, and especially the one who jumped in between them. The only thing we do know is this has been reported by Scarbough as coming from sources close to the investigation. One of the attorneys has also reported there are new affidavets.

"Do you have a link for the Bible Code website?"

http://www.revelation13.net/KingJames2c.html