'Scarborough Country' for July 13SCARBOROUGH: Good evening.
We take you around the world tonight with a packed show, from Aruba, to a possible murder mystery on the Mediterranean, to a presidential favorite appearing in a hormone-driven teen flick.
And, in a few minutes, Pulitzer Prize-winning reporters Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein will be here to talk about what they're calling one of the greatest threats to American democracy.
But, first, let's get the latest from Aruba, where we're going to learn tomorrow whether the key suspect in the Natalee Holloway case will walk or be thrown back in jail.
Let's go live right now to NBC's Michelle Kosinski. She's in Aruba tonight.
Michelle, give us the very latest.
MICHELLE KOSINSKI, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Well, now we're only a couple hours away really from finding out the judges' pleasure in these five appeals that were before them.
Most importantly, the prosecutors want the Kalpoe brothers put back in jail. And Joran van der Sloot's attorneys want him out of jail. Yesterday, we talked a little bit about new evidence we found out was presented yesterday before these judges by prosecutors. Now we know that evidence was in the form of witness statements, some new statements by witnesses that was added to the material in this case.
Here's the thing, though. Prosecutors were required to put forward everything they had before these appeals court judges. So, just because they have new witness statements doesn't mean it necessarily adds significantly to their case. And that's the sort of thing that we've been hearing from other attorneys.
The attorneys for the suspect say, hey, this stuff doesn't pertain to my client. It doesn't really add to the case. We've heard it all before.
So, that all remains to be seen. And, of course, the judges are going to be the ones who have to decide just what this means to the case. And we're expected to hear that decision at 2:00 in the afternoon tomorrow.
Now, all this has been hard on the family. In fact, you know, the best-case scenario for them, they say, is for all three of these suspects to be behind bars.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: I know—I definitively know those three individuals have involvement with her disappearance, yes. And—yes. And I—as her mother, I can say is a crime committed against my daughter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KOSINSKI: We found out a little bit more today, too.
What will it take for prosecutors to get their way and have these Kalpoe brothers put back in jail? Well, just like in our legal system, there's always a benchmark at certain parts of the investigation. Early on, to make an arrest, it's a reasonable suspicion. Later on, for a conviction, we need beyond a reasonable doubt. For a civil case, it's a preponderance of the evidence. You know those benchmarks.
Well, in this legal system, the judges will have to see that there's a serious suspicion and that there's sufficient evidence that's there for these boys to be put back behind bars. They'll have to show—they'll have to find evidence that will show that these boys did have some involvement. So, we're going to wait and see tomorrow afternoon on that.
Michelle, what are you hearing about these eyewitness accounts? Are they eyewitness accounts placing these men at the scene of the crime or are they just eyewitness accounts regarding Joran's involvement with Natalee Holloway earlier in the evening?
KOSINSKI: Don't we wish we knew? That's been the speculation. Every since we found out that they were witness statements, the door pretty much snapped closed on us.
In fact, it was tough to even get that information, as to what this new evidence was. And, you know, it was tough to even find out that there was anything new presented. rMDNM_Nobody—and our only sources, of course, here are attorneys. And none of them want to talk about this evidence, because, obviously, it involves somebody. And it will affect some of these people, but they want to say right now, it doesn't affect my client.
So, we may not know anything about these details until, you know, if and when there could be a conviction in this case.
SCARBOROUGH: Michelle, final question. Is there a feeling in the prosecutor's office that they're going to be able to keep Joran in jail?
KOSINSKI: Well, we're hearing from pretty much all sides right now that things could very well stay status quo.
But there have been other surprises in this case as well. Bringing in Joran van der Sloot's father, putting him in jail, some people weren't expecting that. Then the prosecutor's office let us know that he allegedly told all three of the boys that, without a body, there's no case. That was sort of a surprise detail that we never expected to get.
So, you never know. And, at this point, nobody wants to say much, but, you know, we might not have any changes here. The Kalpoes might stay out of jail. And Joran might stay in. But it's really anybody's guess right now. The system is very quiet.
SCARBOROUGH: Very quiet, indeed. Michelle, thank you so much for being with us. Michelle Kosinski, as always, we greatly appreciate it.
Now, friend, let me tell you, I'm going to give you some information right now. It's information that you're not hearing on TV. It's information that you haven't heard certainly in the court system. Inside sources in this investigation tell me and have told me—and I found out earlier today that there are reports from people who are inside the bar that, actually, Natalee Holloway was approached twice by Joran van der Sloot.
Twice, he made passes towards her. Twice, she rebuffed him. The second time, she pushed him away. And a friend of hers from Birmingham from the school hit him with a closed—or, I'm sorry—Joran hit Natalee Holloway with a closed fist. Then this friend tried to walk in between the two and tried to stop him from aggressively going after her and suggested that he take it outside. If he wanted to fight somebody, he should fight somebody his own size.
It's going to be very interesting to see if that information comes out tomorrow in the court hearing, whether we find out, again, two times—and I'll tell you what. This information, when I learned it today from somebody very close to the case, this information certainly changes what we've heard, which, early on, we heard, of course, that Natalee just jumped in the car and drove away.
Obviously, Joran van der Sloot, according to these sources, aggressively went after her twice. She tried to rebuff him two times. The second time, he struck her. We'll see whether that information comes out tomorrow.
Now, as we heard from Michelle, tomorrow is potentially a decisive day in the search for the truth in this case. With me now to talk about what people in Aruba are saying is the editor in chief of “Aruba Today,” Julia Renfro.
Julia, thank you so much for being with us tonight.
What can you tell us about what Arubans on the street are saying? Do they want to see Joran set free tomorrow? Do they want to see the Kalpoe brothers stay out of jail? Or do they want to see them, all three, thrown in jail?
JULIA RENFRO, EDITOR IN CHIEF, “ARUBA TODAY”: Well, right now, nobody is anticipating Joran being set free.
Although, from our understanding, no actual new evidence was presented, as the prosecutor made us aware this afternoon that she didn't have to present anything new in order for the judge's appeal to make a decision. It was basically based on the same information that the judge of instruction had on what and he the other two judges in Curacao are going to make their decision on.
And, of course, Aruba supports that. If the judges of appeal decide that the two Kalpoe brothers need to be back in jail, Aruba is 100 percent supportive with that.
SCARBOROUGH: You know—you know, Julia, a lot of people—we've been hearing a lot of Arubans have been angry at Natalee Holloway's family, believing that they've been too aggressive in seeking the truth. What's the feeling right now? Do you believe that most Arubans are now supportive of the family or do you think that was a gross overstatement? That was just 200 people protesting?
RENFRO: It was not 200 people protesting. It was 200 people demonstrating what Aruba was about, the friendliness of the island, that Aruba was turning into a welcome mat that was just being absolutely stepped on.
No question about it. I was there at the protest demonstration. And it was all about, this is who we are. This is our justice system. We believe in our justice system. Let it prevail.
SCARBOROUGH: Do you think, though—I mean, you say it wasn't a protest. Do you—were there, though, many people there that were angry with Natalee Holloway's family and believed that the family was too aggressive?
RENFRO: No, it wasn't about that at all. Absolutely not. It was how it was being presented by different networks. That's all it was about.
Nobody was upset with Mrs. Twitty. Everyone knows that she has missed her—missing her daughter. And everyone feels for that. Arubans have—all people have been out there looking, searching, crying and praying for the return of Natalee Holloway.
SCARBOROUGH: All right. Thank you so much, Julia Renfro. We greatly appreciate you being with us tonight.
RENFRO: Thanks.
SCARBOROUGH: Now, to preview tomorrow's hearing, let's discuss what we know about Joran van der Sloot.
First of all, he said he left Natalee alive on the beach the night she went missing, that he was free for 10 days after Natalee disappeared, before being arrested on June the 9th. That's why so many of us have been angry at the Aruban system. Investigators removed evidence from his home a few days after his arrest. Prosecutors say he was coached by his father. Remember the famous “no body, no crime”?
And, also, Joran changed his story to police after the Kalpoes changed their story. Joran is the only suspect still left in custody. And prosecutors believe there's enough evidence to hold him there indefinitely.
So, given that information, what might a case involving Joran look?
With me now to talk about this tomorrow, an all-star legal duo, famed defense attorney Mickey Sherman and also Lisa Bloom, the famed Court TV anchor.
I'd like to welcome both of you.
And, Lisa, let me start with you. Prosecute this case.
LISA BLOOM, COURT TV ANCHOR: Look, Joran changed his story in a significant way.
First, he said he left her at her hotel. Then it turns out he went to the beach with her. That's a significant change. And then he leaves a young woman, 18 years old, alone on the beach in a foreign country at 2:00 a.m. Are you kidding me? These circumstances are so suspicious.
And, Joe, I take note of what you said, the information that you just revealed on your show, that he previously struck her. If that's true, this is a man willing to cross the line, willing to actually physically assault a woman. And why? Because she rebuffed him. Because she had the gall to say no to him. I think the circumstances are highly suspicious against Joran van der Sloot.
Why is his dad, a judge on the island, telling him, no body, no crime?
If he's indeed innocent, I would expect his father to say, you're innocent.
You have nothing to worry about.
I think this is all very suspicious when you put it all together.
SCARBOROUGH: Mickey Sherman, defend him.
MICKEY SHERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, of course it's suspicious. That's why these guys are locked up.
But I got to tell you, we in this country do not own the only recipe for justice. I think we're being overly tough on the Aruba criminal justice system. I think they're trying...
SCARBOROUGH: They let him walk for 11 days.
SHERMAN: I think that...
SCARBOROUGH: Let the chief suspect walk for 11 days, Mickey. Come on. If it were your daughter, you'd be going crazy.
SHERMAN: They're suspects, you know.
Anybody who is prosecuted should be—anywhere. I don't care whether it's Aruba or in the United States or anyplace anywhere. They should be prosecuted only if there's available, competent, credible evidence. And we shouldn't backfill for that with moral outrage and our desperate need to solve the crime.
(CROSSTALK)
SHERMAN: And that's what we're talking about here.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Mickey, Mickey, hold on a second. Mickey, if it's your daughter, Mickey—Mickey, if it's was your daughter...
SHERMAN: Yes.
SCARBOROUGH: She's seen leaving a bar with three suspects.
SHERMAN: Right. Right.
SCARBOROUGH: They're allowed to roam for 11 days. And, instead, they pick up two black guys who just happened to be in neighborhood at the time.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: You would be as angry as me. You would be as angry as Natalee Holloway's mother.
SHERMAN: And, by the way, I don't take issue with Natalee Holloway's mother. I think she gets a free pass. Her daughter is missing, very likely deceased. So, she can say whatever she wants about anybody. I think the Aruba folks have been very kind to her and they will continue to be kind. And I don't have a problem with her criticizing the system.
But this system isn't necessarily broken down. I mean, what they did, they've been extraordinarily zealous. This is a country whose 70 percent income in based on tourism.
SCARBOROUGH: Oh, come on, Mickey.
(CROSSTALK)
SHERMAN: They locked up three guys.
SCARBOROUGH: I'm going to—I'm going to let you explain that on the other side of the break.
Extraordinarily zealous?
SHERMAN: Yes. They locked up three guys for nothing.
SCARBOROUGH: It's like calling the Keystone Cops Sherlock Holmes.
Come on.
SHERMAN: They locked up the suspect's father.
SCARBOROUGH: For nothing? OK, you're going to have to explain that to me on the other side of the break.
Mickey, Lisa, stay with us. We have a lot more when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCARBOROUGH: That's the prime suspect in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway, Joran van der Sloot.
Let's go back to our all-star panel, Mickey Sherman and Lisa Bloom.
Lisa, Mickey said that the police officers have been incredibly diligent, that they drug in these three poor boys for no reason. Respond.
BLOOM: Well, it just seems silly. Let's use our common sense.
A girl is missing. She's probably dead. Joran van der Sloot says, she just volunteered to stay alone on the beach at 2:00 a.m. in Aruba. Sure, that was fine with her. He left her there. And then I suppose she just threw herself into the sea, went so far out that the current swept her away and she was never seen again.
Let's put together the fact that we have a missing girl, that the boy's story has changed several times on significant points, that it makes no sense at all, and that his father has essentially told him to keep quiet. There's a lot here. There's good reason to keep Joran van der Sloot in custody. And that's what the courts are going to decide tomorrow.
SHERMAN: So the father should...
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Mickey, I got to ask you, if you got the father saying no body, no crime, you have got Joran van der Sloot changing his story three times, lying to the police, lying to investigators, he is the last one that is seen with her, I mean, come on.
SHERMAN: OK. But, Joe...
SCARBOROUGH: I mean, what else do you need for probable cause to throw the guy in jail?
SHERMAN: Yes, but what's the evidence that he has committed the crime, other than he lied and he's maybe not the nicest person and he listened to his lawyer, who happens to be his father's advice?
You know, the father, they locked him up for, what, three to five days. All he did was go over there, see his son, and tell him, don't make any incriminating statements. That's what every lawyer in the world does.
SCARBOROUGH: And get rid of the body.
BLOOM: How about—how about punching her in the face, Mickey. How about punching her in the face with a closed fist, as Joe just reported?
SHERMAN: All right. OK. Fine.
BLOOM: Isn't that significant?
SHERMAN: And that's the guy who just came forward. Where has he been the last two weeks, on Mars? I don't buy that. This is some...
BLOOM: Well, sometimes, witnesses take a while to come forward.
SHERMAN: No way.
BLOOM: Sometimes they take years to come forward, especially in this kind of media glare.
(CROSSTALK)
SHERMAN: Not in the big case.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Mickey, Mickey what about—you know what, Mickey? I can't give you all the details here. But I believe it's going to come out soon and you will understand why this person hasn't come forward.
But I have got to ask you again, I mean, again, this guy changes his story three times, and very suspicious.
SHERMAN: People do that.
SCARBOROUGH: He is the last—he is the last one seen at the—when she is going away. Isn't that enough, even in the United States, to keep somebody in jail? Just because there's not a body, why let him go?
BLOOM: Why would an innocent person change his story?
SHERMAN: Maybe. Maybe, maybe not.
The problem is, you still have to build a bridge between that conduct, which is suspicious, to the commission of a murder.
BLOOM: But, Mickey...
SHERMAN: And it's not there. You can't make chicken soup out of chicken feathers, no matter how much you want to do it.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: So, if you get rid of the body, if you get rid of the body, then you walk. Is that what you are saying?
BLOOM: Why would an innocent person change his story, Mickey?
SHERMAN: People do it all the time.
BLOOM: Why not just tell the truth right from the beginning?
SHERMAN: People do it all the time. They are in custody. They're nervous. They make mistakes. They are stupid. That's what happens.
BLOOM: Mickey, do you believe he left her alone on the beach in the middle of the night?
SHERMAN: Don't know. Don't know.
BLOOM: And that that was consensual? That's what she wanted. Sure.
An American girl...
SHERMAN: Have no clue.
BLOOM: ... 2:00 a.m. on an Aruban beach, why not?
SHERMAN: But I wouldn't put somebody away for life on...
BLOOM: That's preposterous.
SHERMAN: ... because I think that that's probably what happened. You don't go to jail, you don't spend your life in jail because that's probably what happened. You need credible, competent evidence.
BLOOM: No. But we're not talking about locking him up for life. We're talking about keeping him in jail, keeping him answering questions from the police, because, eventually, one of these young men is going to crack.
I think there's too many of them. They are too young. And there's too much pressure on them. Eventually, the truth will come out, and the police need to continue to question them to get answers, because poor Beth Twitty and the remainder of the family is left alone in Aruba, trying to figure this out for themselves.
SCARBOROUGH: It's absolutely awful.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Lisa, I got to ask you a final question. Do you believe that, in the end, if Joran followed his father's advice, if he was, in fact, involved and he got rid of the body, that eventually he is going to walk?
BLOOM: No, I don't, because I do have faith that the truth eventually comes out.
You know, we see cold cases all the time on Court TV. We are showing another one tomorrow; 29 years later, someone is being tried for murder. Mickey Sherman knows well in the Skakel case...
SHERMAN: Yes.
BLOOM: People can be tried many years later. Eventually...
SHERMAN: And you don't need a body. You don't need a body for—to prove a murder.
BLOOM: ... someone talks. Eventually, evidence comes out.
SHERMAN: You don't need the body, but you need competent evidence.
SCARBOROUGH: All right. Thanks a lot, Mickey Sherman, Lisa Bloom.
Greatly appreciate you being with us tonight.
BLOOM: Thanks, Joe.
SHERMAN: Yes.
'The Abrams Report' for July 13 ABRAMS: Now the latest in the story of the missing Alabama teen, Natalee Holloway. At this time tomorrow, the prosecution's lead suspect could be free. Tomorrow afternoon, three judges will announce a decision as to whether to release Dutch teen Joran van der Sloot, the only person in custody in connection with the case. They'll also decide if brothers Satish and Deepak Kalpoe, who were arrested with Joran and were released last week, will be re-arrested. And what about this new evidence that we hear about presented at today's hearing.
Joining me now with the latest, NBC's Michelle Kosinski.
Michelle, what do you know about what was presented to the judges yesterday?
MICHELLE KOSINSKI, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Well, what we were hearing was sort of tantalizing. It was put out there as new developments, new evidence by the prosecution that would indicate that they were furthering their case before this court of appeals.
But here's the catch. In this system, prosecutors were not required to put out any new evidence. This is simply appeals court judges reviewing the exact same evidence that the lower court had. But the prosecutors were required to put out anything new that they were able to get.
So to make that clear, they didn't have to present anything new but if they had something new, then they have to present it. So this new evidence which we know now is in the form of witness statements, some new witness statements in the case, it's out there but it doesn't necessarily benefit the prosecution's case. They could be neutral. They could be things that were already know, but they had to present it.
And that's what we're hearing from all of the attorneys. And that's really what we rely on to get our information, the attorneys for all three of these boys.
ABRAMS: We don't - I was going to say - sorry to interrupt.
KOSINSKI: Go ahead.
ABRAMS: We don't know anything about what these witness statements say, right?
KOSINSKI: Not at all. But here's what we do know from those attorneys. They all say, hey, it doesn't pertain to my client, all across the board, and it's not anything substantial to the case. So it could be neutral. But then again, they want to protect their client. So they're saying, well, my client wasn't involved and, you know, whatever was revealed by those statements.
One attorney was very coy when we asked, well, does it pertain to any of the other suspects in this case. Didn't want to answer that question and most questions about that evidence, they don't want to answer because they're really not supposed to. All of this, remember, is behind closed doors.
So there is new evidence out there, we just don't know how important it will be to prosecutors, if important at all.
ABRAMS: All right, Michelle Kosinski, thanks a lot.
ABRAMS: We're back with more on the Aruban investigation into Alabama teen Natalee Holloway's disappearance. Tomorrow, we expect to hear the decision of three appeals court judges who, as we speak, are considering whether to release lead suspect Joran van der Sloot, and maybe even re-arrest brothers Deepak and Satish Kalpoe.
Joining me now is Aruban Attorney Lincoln Gomez.
Lincoln, thanks for coming back on the program.
All right, let's take these one-by-one. Let's start with the issue of Joran van der Sloot. His lawyer appealing, saying that he should be released. That the lower court judge got it wrong by ordering that he remain detained for another 60 days. Is it a long-shot argument from his attorneys?
LINCOLN GOMEZ, ARUBAN ATTORNEY: Well, you know, it's the same facts
being presented to this time a three-judge panel. And it could go either way. This three-judge panel may very well find that indeed the evident is too thin and could then order the release of Joran van der Sloot
ABRAMS: How significant is it that they're looking at new witness statements?
GOMEZ: Well, again, we don't know the contents of those statements. But, you know, the question is, are they really incriminating towards, in this case, Joran van der Sloot. If they're not, then they may not have that big of an impact in the decision-making process.
ABRAMS: What about the Kalpoe brothers? The prosecutors arguing that the lower court judge made a mistake in releasing them. Tough argument for prosecutors to make to say re-arrest them?
GOMEZ: Well, it's tough to send somebody back in once they've been released. But, again, it's the same factors being presented and it could go, again, either way. Statistically speaking, about 90 percent of these type of appeals are just confirmed by the appellant court. So the overturn ratio, it's about 10 percent here. So there's not a lot of chance of dramatic changes there tomorrow.
ABRAMS: Is it higher one way or the other? Meaning, is it generally statistically harder to get someone rearrested than it is to have someone freed?
GOMEZ: No, once the first judge has gone through it and has taken a decision, only in 10 percent of the times, either way, that decision will be reversed. And if you go back and look at, for instance, the Joran van der Sloot case, compared to the Kalpoe brothers, there the evidence was deemed too thin in the part of the Kalpoe brothers. As far as Joran van der Sloot, the question is, what is still holding him there. And one possible explanation for that is the risk of collusion.
ABRAMS: Judges are human beings. We like to think that they only look at the law but there's always . . .
GOMEZ: We would like to think that.
ABRAMS: Yes, there's always a level of discretion that comes into this. How do you think that the profile of this case, the fact that the world is watching, could impact these judges in terms of making them more or less likely to free someone or re-arrest someone? Do you think it's going to make them more prone in being tough in the sense of keep van der Sloot behind bars and maybe even re-arresting the Kalpoe brothers?
GOMEZ: I think - I think the scrutiny that they're facing and the pressure they're under to make sure, knowing that the world is watching, to make the right decision. To make a conscious decision and to make a good decision, regardless of whether or not, you know, people from different sides may like that decision.
ABRAMS: Hey, Lincoln, can lawyers in - do lawyers in Aruba go to work with polo shirts on? I love that idea if they do.
GOMEZ: Well, it's nice and fresh here.
ABRAMS: Thanks for coming back. We appreciate it.
GOMEZ: Bye-bye.
