Posted on 07/04/2005 6:39:22 PM PDT by TexKat
Mountain Brook High School graduate Natalee Holloway went missing May 30 during a senior trip to Aruba.
AP photo
The Kalpoe brothers should be able to tell us how they all three came about telling the fabricated story about dropping Natalee off at the Holiday Inn.
Did Joran force them to lie for him? Was Paul Van Der Sloot involved in the fabricated coverup?
Yes, you're right. They can provide valuable information to us. Good job.
sw
I tend to agree with you. First we are talking about 18 year olds. Think back to that age. I can remember the stuck-ups, the snobs, the backstabbers, the smart ones, the bookworms, the sluts.
I am not painting Mountain Brook with a broad brush, but at that age, coming out of high school, they were still in their high school group mode. And just as there were bad apples in my school, I am sure Mountain Brook has one or two.
It is not to say that anyone from Mountain Brook had anything to do with this--I am not suggesting it at all. But someone knows alot more than has been told.
Remember the girl on BO'R?
"It's not that no one was looking out for her, it's that everyone was looking out for her.
Strange...
I posted this on one of the earliest thread's about this. My youth group had a mission trip to Jamica when I was a sophmore in High School. There wasn't even a discussion about it in my house, my mom just said NO! When I look at this situation I think, NO WAY would I let my daughter go to an Island without ME as a chaperone. (my daughter isn't even 2 yet though so it's not something in the immediate future anyway) My mom's smug "things make more sense now then almost 20 years ago huh?" said it all.
But with that said that, we all have 20/20 of "maybe not the best situation to put young sheltered kids into".
I would personally be horrified for my private life and some decisions I've made to be gone over in the finest detail by thousands of people I don't know on this forum. I also maintain, it's still not a consequence anyone should have to take (i.e. if the worst has happened) to be killed because you were at the wrong place at the wrong time or said hi to the wrong person. I just simply think blaming Natalee for saying "HI, I'm Natalee" is a snide way out.
Wow, those are some speculations! I heard Nat's roomies say that they thought she had just spent the night in another friend's room and didn't think anything was wrong until they couldn't find her when she didn't show up for check in for leaving. Evidently her roomies crashed themselves and didn't realize until they woke up the next morning that Natalee never came back to the rooom. Her friends gave the impression that it wasn't out of the ordinary for some of the kids to crash in each others rooms after being out late partying together. I wouldn't read anything in to this if I were you....
"so a bunch of drunk tourists don't kill everyone"
___________________________________________________
Any precendent? How many Arubans have been killed by drunk tourists vs. how many tourists have been killed by Arubans?
sp
Personally, I think that says more about the roommates and chaperones than it does about Natalee. I just have not seen anything to suggest to me that Natalee was loose or even used that bad of judgment. Even a glass of wine to someone who didn't drink could have made her "tipsy." I know--I was her size and went out once to a bar and drank just one glass of red wine. Was very surprised. Was with my boss and it scared him to death.
Or the boys could have admitted to having consensual sex because that's not criminal. Having her die on them, particularly if there is a date rape drug in her system, could spell huge trouble for them (or maybe not in Aruba) and that would be a crime. With no Natalee to say otherwise, they were laying the groundwork for an excuse.
Paul apparently said "no body, no crime" (per chief prosecutor) for a reason. It certainly makes me think there's a good argument that there was a body. I do think Paul's standing in the community is motive for him to get involved. But I still think everything you've written can be explained otherwise--that a crime did in fact take place and that Natalee was indeed as nice and responsibile as she appears.
Gotcha, thanks. I guess I just don't understand why it bothers doodlelady if Natalee did introduce herself to Joran. No one can quote word for word what was said in their introduction, so who cares? Natalee may have even flirted with Joran, but again, why would anyone care?
I also think Beth's early public pressure kept two innocent security guards from taking the blame for this.
Actually..there are a lot of them..one of the bizarre sights in Aruba..on the main roads..where a fatal accident occured, on the shoulder..the victim's family erects a monument...sometimes using parts of the vehcile..you'll see a fender sticking up out of the ground, covered with flowers on the anniversay of the death....
I think if you'll follow the postings it might be a little clearer.
Natalee is not being vilified here.
It doesn't. It's the story as told by her classmates on Greta's show that bothers me.
Please be more specific. What did they say that bothered you?
Thank you, Gary.
My two daughters are the classic good girls..happily for them and me..I used to joke that I had the only pair of 20 year old plus virgins in Westchester County..when they were in HS and college..thay had a nice circle of friends..did everythign together..travelled a lot..and always looked out for ewach other...and if any one of those girls, while they wree all out somewheres together, had disappeared for a hour...they others would all have been calling the cops, the Marines,a nd every parent immediately. It's how they all were raised. Again, I'm NOT judging Natalie..merely saying that what we've been told does NOT jibe with what the events seem to indicate..
Excuse me, but have you read the posts following that first statement?
Like so many others I have followed this story since the beginning. I have read most all the statements, threads, and posts on here and other blogs/forums, watched the news coverage, and have seen how many contradictions have arisen or words were changed/slanted to suit the current line of thinking as it progressed, or someone’s comment or question was not accepted with consideration or as it was meant. I have seen professionals on TV argue that no one but Joran could be responsible. And I have heard others debunk some aspects of that theory based on their willingness to entertain other possibilities, or challenge the validity of some things that do not seem probable.
Yesterday I watched the Twitty’s attorney when she was asked about what Beth had said about the Kalpoe brothers. She said she advised Beth not to continue with those types of statements. Evidently she is trying to encourage that the attacks cease. At this time I feel this is in the best interest of the family and that they be helped to allow some consideration for other possible options to their desire for answers.
There is much support that any caring person wants to give a grieving parent at a time like this. Thousands, including me, feel the Twitty’s agony and hope and pray that Natalee is safe somewhere and found. Initially we all wanted it solved easily, we wanted Joran to provide the answers, and Natalee to show up and everyone continue with their lives. When this did not happen we were frustrated, but that frustration cannot drive everyone to remain focused on only one possibility.
There also come a point when kindness for the Twitty family also includes helping them deal with the current known reality, no matter how ugly and different it might be than their suppositions.
I feel that the kindest support Beth and her family can get from people would be to help them turn their focus away from trying to create negativity against a few people (with whom there is no proof of any criminal action against Natalee). It would be more positive for them to allow for the possibility that other individuals, yet unknown, might be responsible. There might be an answer to what happened in this tragedy, or that answer might never come. Prayers for Natalee’s safety are needed more than angry words, and can do more than the negative vibes and nasty comments (bordering on hatred) that are currently being spewed out. The process of accepting should begin which would be more beneficial to the family at this point. And heartfelt prayers that they can find peace should replace the wild, public condemnations of those still considered innocent. The serenity prayer comes to mind:
God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next. Amen
Don’t misunderstand me, I want justice just as much as the next person. I am not one who advocates allowing anyone, anywhere, regardless of position, status, or any circumstances, who is guilty of a crime go without punishment. But, until guilt is proven, there must be sensible focus on facts not just on suppositions and emotions.
For a family, participating in efforts to discover the truth can often get so overwhelming that it becomes a hindrance rather than help when they are so emotionally connected. (Believe me I know, and just do not wish to elaborate here.) Professionals are trained to remain objective and it is best not to expect them to proceed just on feelings alone. It is true that parents can provide a lot of insight in cases. It is true that there are/were conflicting statements, (yes, even lies that I agree cause concern), questionable actions, unusual circumstances, etc. that had and have yet to be investigated and some might always remain unclear.
It is also true that we all wish the authorities had acted more quickly or differently in the beginning. But constant bickering now cannot change the way they proceeded then. Thousands of man hours and thousands of dollars have been spent, far more than for many other missing children who are not as fortunate to have such resources dispensed for them (including high tech resources and aerial support). One can wonder now if such intensive attention and allotment of resources will be the case for the next missing child who does not get the hype and spotlight.
However, there is an element that should also be addressed: It does seem unlikely that one 17 –year-old, unskilled, island high school boy could have committed the “perfect” crime in such a small location and in such a short period of time - and who had no known abilities to be so incredibly thorough or capable. If Joran is guilty of something more than an irresponsible, stupid act of leaving Natalee on the beach (which occurs all the time at Easter Break here in the states by students every season- I have seen it plenty of times) then he should be punished to the full extent of Aruba’s laws. But it will have been a feat that even the most practiced criminal/s would have found hard to have done so successfully without hours and days of prior planning and without resources immediately available and as immediately disposable.
I have read on various threads where others have interpreted every single look, word, action, article of clothing, even physical appearance and bodily response of the suspects and their families as being something evil and suspicious. People have used the term “ugly” to describe Joran’s mother, and made demeaning comments and suppositions about Paulus’ perspiration (Beth might never have seen a person “sweat like that” but it seems she leads a very privileged life as do many of her family. I have seen men and women “sweat” profusely when worried, sad, stressed, or just because of diabetes or another illness. Women wake up at night wringing wet during menopause for heaven’s sake). Unkind words have been used by many to describe the personalities of people they don’t even know. How is that helping this case?
I have seen mothers and fathers who, when protecting their children, have become so irate and opposite of their normal behavior that it has surprised all who even know them well. To judge a parent is “evil” because of his desire to protect his child is just not kind. Just as it has been unkind in the past to quickly judge family members (ala Jessica Lundsford’s father and grandparents) when a child disappears. But, on this case what makes one father’s aggression on behalf of finding his child more appropriate than another’s in protecting his child? The families are all suffering. The Twitty family has the deepest anguish over the loss of their daughter, of course but the Van der Sloot’s lives have been destroyed, and the Kalpoe family is also devastated.
So far the only reality here is truly because the teens in this situation have all done things they were told not to do, (however innocent and typical). Now their families are suffering and tangled in a horrible tragedy of fear, anger, hatred, financial devastation, character assassination, and possibly crime. It is almost Shakespearean. If there is anything to be learned from this I hope it is that children everywhere understand the importance of obeying their parents, and that constant, responsible supervision be provided when our children are away from home and inexperienced in taking care of themselves.
One person wrote in reply me once that we are all “outsiders” to the Twitty family so how can I make statements about them (when I expressed my concerns that their approach had become somewhat beyond being resolute and appeared to be more expecting of worldwide vengeance for the suspects). I wondered how, then, can anyone here make statements about any of the families or family members involved in this case? We are certainly “outsiders” to all those being scrutinized so hurtfully. So, in turn to that person’s question: how can they judge the van der Sloot or Kalpoe families and their behavior? And, how can anyone here feel that their own anger, name-calling, argumentative comments against the suspects and others (who don’t echo the same agenda they are supporting) can bring about anything constructive?
For example: If someone came to my door in the middle of the night to hotly and haughtily question my child I would also probably be defensive and tell my son he did not have to answer anyone but the police, as Mr. VDS said to his son. Then, the next day it should not be so surprising if I were not out assisting the people who questioned my son; who publicly said they found him “suspicious” and made other unkind remarks, and subsequently embarked on a campaign against him. Rather I would be doing what I felt I needed to do to continue to protect my own child who had become a target and I believed wrongfully so.
And, as most all other parents, I would also be very angry with my own child for disobeying and leaving the house and becoming involved in something that even led to the suspicions, or gave a preponderance of guilt, even if innocent of any criminal act. I might not accept all my child said as truth, but to be sure, in any event, I would be focused on my own child and making use of whatever necessary to protect him in the event that he was being truthful.
Would any of us immediately accept the notions of someone unknown to us who insinuated that our child was guilty of a crime without wanting to protect our child against the flames of that anguished parent? If, not knowing anything for certain, and being pounced upon in the middle of the night, wouldn’t many of us retaliate with a bit of anger and consternation? Still, I would also have compassion for the other family -- as Mrs. Van der Sloot certainly demonstrated, and appeared entirely sincere, and as the Kalpoe’s mother displayed when also interviewed.
Recently, on another thread, I have seen where some are finally advocating a prayer thread. I mentioned that prayer was the best we could all do when I posted that comment on the “third Natalee thread.” It was my hope we could all spend more time in prayer than in anger. I tried to do that throughout the weeks rather than spend time posting. If the energy that is being spent filling the air with hateful comments would be turned to positive energy of prayer and support and wishes that the Twitty family would find peace, I believe that would be more helpful.
I have also stated that at first I admitted to jumping on the bandwagon against Joran, Aruba, etc. But I soon realized I could be wrong, things just did not seem to uphold the theories being presented. So, I tried early on to bring some objectivity to the discussion and not focus on rumors or suppositions. I had hoped that when a statement was made it could be presented as fact, not hearsay or someone’s “spin” on what the real statement was. I posted a comment to that effect. I felt objectivity was most needed. Mainly because I feel that the Free Republic is the one place where we have found that people mostly try to deal with truth and facts, not as is happening on this case - not, as we have often criticized the media for “spinning” things, to suit their own agendas - and not a place where one’s desire to argue overrides another’s desire to approach things calmly and objectively and introduce their own thoughts.
These are just threads of discussion – with no or little impact on the case itself – and serve no purpose other than to allow us to air our thoughts and have an audience for our “say so.” Thus, all thoughts should be given courtesy and have the same right without challenge that is just for the sake of arguing or making another look foolish, or demeaning someone else’s thoughts or questions. Challenge should be to offer clarity or edification. I believe that is the objective of this forum, not nasty bickering as we see on so many other forums and that we all deplore.
But many seem so sure of their own suppositions in this case that they react as though only their thoughts are correct and must be believed, even though they have no more evidence or knowledge than any others who question them. This is not a case where anyone should be so insistent that one is right just because they want to be credited for being right when that person has no ability to know the truth. We all only know what we read or hear through the media, the Internet or another second-hand supply. Only Natalee and whoever took her (if that is what happened) know the truth.
I am not saying that Joran is innocent. No one knows, for certain, who is guilty. At this point all we really know for sure (because others have testified seeing them) is that he was in the casino, Natalee was at the casino and he and Natalee did talk, he did meet her at C & C’s, and they did leave together along with the Kalpoe brothers. How/even when they originally met, how they arranged to meet again at C & C’s, how and why she got into their car, where they went after, and what they did are still not certain and have been disputed even by Natalee’s classmates in various interviews, and even the suspects. We can only surmise - and just because we have “feelings” about things does not make them so.
A myriad of other things could have occurred. A number of other people could have been involved. Or none, and Natalee could be somewhere she wants to be. But in the more likely case that she was abducted, all the focus on a few suspects just might have given the real “perp/s” the opportunity to escape, undetected, with Natalee and now be somewhere far from the eye of the police and public.
Or, worse yet, all the focus on this might have caused a more horrible ending of Natalee’s life if abducted, than might have been the original intention. It just might have made her “too hot to handle” - to keep hidden or even delivered to another planned location where, possibly, she might have had the chance in the future to escape or be seen by others.
Yes, I am an advocate of media enlightenment and attention in such cases. It is through their efforts and The Amber Alert system (the best tool that has been introduced in ages) that many have been found. But, overdoing the focus ignores the possibility that attention on one suspect might play right into the hands of the true “perp” and while we are all focused in only one direction, opportunities for other things to occur, out of that spotlight are intensified.
We should never be so narrowly focused. We should never be led mainly by suppositions and “gut feelings” of a few, even family members who have been so devastated and are suffering beyond the average person’s comprehension. The media should always remain entirely objective and question outside the arena of emotional attention and “popular” theory. I believe many who are now so closely involved should have learned that lesson well with Jennifer Wilbanks. (Not to insinuate with any certainty that Natalee is a runaway.) However, during that case many willingly gave up their objectivity and succumbed to the desired beliefs of her family. The media and general acceptance of only one viewpoint led everyone astray and has resounded in both cases. Could it be occurring again?
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