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To: DoughtyOne
If China's R & D developes state of the art weapons systems, we're going to rue the day we got them off and running.

This presumes that we could have kept them from getting 'off and running'. That started over 20 years ago when they gave up on pure communism and started opening their economy to investment and trade.

Observe good faith and justice towards all nations; cultivate peace and harmony with all...

In the execution of such a plan, nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations, and passionate attachments for others, should be excluded; and that, in place of them, just and amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges towards another a habitual hatred or a habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable, when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur. Hence, frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The nation, prompted by ill-will and resentment, sometimes impels to war the government, contrary to the best calculations of policy. The government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject; at other times it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility instigated by pride, ambition, and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations, has been the victim.

9 posted on 06/26/2005 9:45:00 PM PDT by Gunslingr3
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To: Gunslingr3

So what you're saying is that nothing could be learned by trade with Germany and Japan in the decade prior to WWII.

Ah, nice one...

BTW, it's a little difficult to say we couldn't have stopped China, when we're the only nation that practices trade deficits with it, and probably eclipse the trade of all other nations combined by double.

I don't know the excact figures on the latter, and may be off. That's my basic understanding.


13 posted on 06/26/2005 9:52:53 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (US socialist liberalism would be dead without the help of politicians who claim to be conservative.)
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To: Gunslingr3; chimera; WhiskeyPapa; GOP_1900AD; A. Pole; Jeff Head; Travis McGee; kattracks; ...
This presumes that we could have kept them from getting 'off and running'. That started over 20 years ago when they gave up on pure communism and started opening their economy to investment and trade.

We could...and should have. At this point, the worst genie is likely out of the bottle, with their grad students at our universities technical departments by the legions, still manifestly fire-breathing Marxist Chinese warmongers.

They never "gave up" on "pure communism". Instead, they perceived a short-cut to catching up...and if we were foolish enough...surpassing the U.S. Their doctrine taught that communism is the final stage of capitalist evolution. And since their society had no capital to speak of, they needed to sucker in Western capitalists to give them modern technological/industrial capital...which would jump start their own. They would fully control these capital aggregates by setting up communist party front-operations, "companies" -requirng the Westerners "Partner" with... which they would later co-opt in a second (or third) revolution.

A grandiose new version of Lenin's New Economic Program...when he declared his communist experiment over, and would no longer be doctrrinaire and would open up to Western investment. Even sucked ardent anti-communist Henry Ford in.

Deng Xiouping made clear to his fellow hardliner purists in the Party that in fact they were not giving up on their Communist objectives and ultimate control of everything...when he explained: "Whether you call the cat black or white is not important. What matters is if it still catches mice." This blood-curdling metaphor is faithfully enacted in the most current version of the Chinese Constitution, which makes clear that the Party/State rules in every aspect, even in the 'reformed' zones.

I believe that in order to protect our national security and sovereignty we can withdraw from the Chinese economy, and expel all Chinese students who do not publicly renounce their country's communism, and make their goods prohibitive. All of this will have tremendous cost on us. But also marvelous opportunities to restore American primacy and economic power which is slipping fast.

Anyways, for the last 35 years clearly, since Nixon went to China, we have been under an illusion as to who and what we are dealing with in China. And given them every benefit of the doubt and every break. Up to and inclusive of granting them MFN status, WTO entry, etc. Ignoring their civil rights violations, and systemmic oppressions and subjugations of neigbors and even their direct warmongering against us.

It is a policy of unadulterated and sickening appeasement. To take your George Washington text's proper meaning and apply it to that reality (see below for his FULL context which is clearly against your slant), that we are behaving in a delusory fashion to China, treating them as a friend, when they are not:

"The nation which indulges towards another a habitual hatred or a habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest.

Yes, the phony free traders...i.e., "Foreign Intersts"... and the communist/globalists in our own Fifth Column have indeed led us astray, and we have inherited a hell of a mess.

First order of business, is to clearly understand however that the enemy was not completely defeated. Not at all here in the U.S. campuses, NPCs and Foundations, or the media...or in the People's Republic of China. It just went into camouflage and is biding its time while using our own hubris against us. And all wings of these communists conjoin together for their common purposes. U.S. communists apparently differ whether the capital of the world socialist government should be in New York...or Brussels...or Bejing. Bejing's communists are not squeamish about their choice.

When your quote from George Washington's Farewell Address was uttered...Sept. 17, 1796... there was not an implacable communist menace. But there has been in most of the last century, and it persists and waxes still today. I have no doubt George Washington would have never denied the need for "habitual" opposition to the grand conspiracy in order to preserve liberty in our own land. Here is his FULL TEXT:

Farewell Address, President George Washington

September 17, 1796

"Observe good faith and justice towards all Nations; cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and Morality enjoin this conduct; and can it be, that good policy does not equally enjoin it? It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and, at no distant period, a great Nation, to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people always guided by an exalted justice and benevolence. Who can doubt, that, in the course of time and things, the fruits of such a plan would richly repay any temporary advantages, which might be lost by a steady adherence to it? Can it be that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a Nation with its Virtue? The experiment, at least, is recommended by every sentiment which ennobles human nature. Alas! is it rendered impossible by its vices?

In the execution of such a plan, nothing is more essential, than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular Nations, and passionate attachments for others, should be excluded; and that, in place of them, just and amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated. The Nation, which indulges towards another an habitual hatred, or an habitual fondness, is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable, when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur. Hence frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The Nation, prompted by ill-will and resentment, sometimes impels to war the Government, contrary to the best calculations of policy. The Government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject; at other times, it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility instigated by pride, ambition, and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of Nations has been the victim.

So likewise, a passionate attachment of one Nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite Nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest, in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter, without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite Nation of privileges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the Nation making the concessions; by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained; and by exciting jealousy, ill-will, and a disposition to retaliate, in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld. And it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens, (who devote themselves to the favorite nation,) facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country, without odium, sometimes even with popularity; gilding, with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good, the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.

As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the Public Councils! Such an attachment of a small or weak, towards a great and powerful nation, dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter.

Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens,) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake; since history and experience prove, that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of Republican Government. But that jealousy, to be useful, must be impartial; else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation, and excessive dislike of another, cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots, who may resist the intrigues of the favorite, are liable to become suspected and odious; while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests.

The great rule of conduct for us, in regard to foreign nations, is, in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements, let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop."


36 posted on 06/27/2005 8:12:16 AM PDT by Paul Ross (George Patton: "I hate to have to fight for the same ground twice.")
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