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E85 (Alternative Fuel)
US Senate Website ^ | May 12, 2005 | Barak Obama

Posted on 06/24/2005 2:18:04 PM PDT by mikemikemikecubed

A lot of times, trying to get something done here in Washington can get pretty frustrating. There's bitter partisanship, petty politics, and a general atmosphere that isn't always conducive to passing legislation that people actually care about.

But I'm happy to report that today wasn't one of those days.

Today, the Senate passed my proposal, which will be included in the transportation bill, that would make it easier for people to fill their cars with a cheaper alternative to gasoline.

Now, I know most of you are as tired as I am of pulling into a gas station and seeing that the prices are even higher than they were the last time you filled up. It's $2.19, then it's $2.24, then it's $2.35, and up and up. When will it stop? As long as we're dependent on oil from the Middle East, we don't know.

That's why we need to stop just talking about energy independence and actually do something about it.

If someone told you that you could fill your cars and trucks with fuel that's 50 cents cheaper than current gas prices, you'd jump at the chance. But what a lot of people don't know is that this option is already out there. It's called E-85, and it's a fuel made of 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. It's cleaner than gasoline, it's cheaper, and most importantly, it reduces our dependence on oil from the Middle East. In fact, the Indianapolis 500 thought it was such a good alternative that pretty soon, their entire fleet will run on E-85.

Right now, there are millions of cars and trucks that can run on E-85. You might even have one yourself. They're known as "flexible fuel vehicles," and the auto industry is turning out hundreds of thousands of them every year.

Of course, the reason you're not seeing more cars run on E-85 is that we've got a severe shortage of E-85 fuel stations. While there are more than 180,000 gas stations all over America, only about 400 offer E-85.

This is where my proposal comes in. It's going to cost stations to install E-85 pumps, so we thought we'd give them a tax credit that would encourage them to do so. As more and more stations realize how popular this cheap alternative to gas is becoming, more will utilize this tax credit and install their own pumps.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Government
KEYWORDS: energy; independence; osamaobama
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To: R. Scott

If you're driving a carburated vehicle, you'll need to adjust the lean-rich mixture to compensate for the higher oxygen content of the ethanol. If you're the real macho sort and have a manual choke, you'll have no trouble if you leave the knob pulled just slightly.


41 posted on 06/24/2005 3:22:37 PM PDT by Mr. Lucky
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To: IronJack
It should be noted for all the naysayers that Brazil has been burning a 90-percent ethanol/gas mix for decades now. To my knowledge, catastrophe hasn't struck there.

Yes. But that is Brazil. This is the United States. And that is a significant difference.

The economic viability and net energy return for ethanol (and every other farmed fuel for that matter) is completely dependent on the source crop used to produce the ethanol. In the United States, we predominately make ethanol from corn. In Brazil, with their significantly warmer climate and milder seasonal variations, they make it from sugarcane. And sugarcane is a much more efficient and productive source crop to make ethanol from than corn is. The net energy balance for ethanol made from sugarcane is somewhere in the 2.5 region. For ethanol made from corn, it's around 1.25.

Unfortunately for the United States, we have large tracts of land suitable for corn growing, but not many areas suitable for sugarcane. The states of Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, Minnesota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, and Ohio make up our vast and productive Corn Belt, which is very suitable for producing tasty steaks. But for ethanol production, it would be better for us if we had a Sugar Belt.

42 posted on 06/24/2005 3:26:48 PM PDT by pillbox_girl
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To: Graycliff
1.4 gallons of E85 for each gallon of gas according to this


43 posted on 06/24/2005 3:35:15 PM PDT by idkfa
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To: pillbox_girl

We DO have a "Sugar Belt". Two, in fact. One in the hot steamy marshlands of Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana and Texas, with a detached part in Hawaii, and another across the northern tier of states, where sugar beets are grown, Minnesota, North and South Dakota, and Montana.

Because it is not economically feasible to grow these crops in this country any more (because of overseas production driving down prices), production in these areas has fallen sharply in recent years.


44 posted on 06/24/2005 3:39:19 PM PDT by alloysteel ("Master of the painfully obvious.....")
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To: pillbox_girl

In calculating the energy efficieny of corn derived ethanol, how much of the energy input is attributed to the products such as gluten meal or DDG's?


45 posted on 06/24/2005 3:42:17 PM PDT by Mr. Lucky
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To: dr huer

Right you are, doc! This point is so often overlooked in these discussions. Never have figured out why.


46 posted on 06/24/2005 4:00:56 PM PDT by SAJ
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To: mikemikemikecubed

Ah, E85, the bane of my existence. Poorer gas mileage, reduced performance, modifications that probably affect resale...you know, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. Thank heaven I don't own the cars the company was conned into buying!


47 posted on 06/24/2005 4:01:30 PM PDT by TheGeezer
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To: pillbox_girl

see#32 and get over it.


48 posted on 06/24/2005 4:09:56 PM PDT by Keith in Iowa (Life's a beach - and Liberals are like the sand that gets in your swimsuit...)
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To: pillbox_girl
Unfortunately for the United States, we have large tracts of land suitable for corn growing, but not many areas suitable for sugarcane. The states of Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, Minnesota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, and Ohio make up our vast and productive Corn Belt, which is very suitable for producing tasty steaks. But for ethanol production, it would be better for us if we had a Sugar Belt.

You sound as if once corn is used for ethanol, there's nothing else left...which is bovine scat - which is literally true if you use one of the other products in producing ethanol to feed cattle...

49 posted on 06/24/2005 4:12:53 PM PDT by Keith in Iowa (Life's a beach - and Liberals are like the sand that gets in your swimsuit...)
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To: pillbox_girl

PS:

http://www.ncga.com/public_policy/PDF/03_28_05ArgonneNatlLabEthanolStudy.pdf


Ethanol generates 35% more energy than it takes to produce, according to a recent study by Argonne National Laboratory conducted by Michael Wang. The finding goes against a belief among many that ethanol production uses more energy than it creates.


50 posted on 06/24/2005 4:17:23 PM PDT by Keith in Iowa (Life's a beach - and Liberals are like the sand that gets in your swimsuit...)
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To: pillbox_girl

See also: http://www.agriculture.com/ag/story.jhtml?storyid=/templatedata/ag/story/data/agNews_050328crETHANOL.xml&catref=ag1001


51 posted on 06/24/2005 4:18:46 PM PDT by Keith in Iowa (Life's a beach - and Liberals are like the sand that gets in your swimsuit...)
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To: pillbox_girl
And another thing...

The link you provide is for a document dated 1995. OLD DATA. Times have changed.

From http://www.ethanol.org/documents/04CFDC-002_EnergyBalanceF.pdf - Quote:
Ethanol critics such as Cornell University’s Dr. David Pimentel, who argue that ethanol production uses more
energy than it yields, typically select data and use assumptions that are outdated. While virtually all analyses
refute Pimentel’s conclusions, a 2002 Michigan State University study notes several discrepancies in
Pimentel’s methodology and conclusions:
• 1992 corn yields and energy inputs were used. Today’s yields have greatly increased and the use of pesticides
and fertilizers has gone down.
• Figures for the energy used to manufacture ethanol data were from 1979.
• Irrigation energy costs are included for all corn used in ethanol manufacturing, though only 15% of U.S. corn is irrigated.
• Distillers dried grains are not used as an energy credit.
Dan Walters provides a similar perspective. According to Walters, a University of Nebraska-Lincoln soil scientist,
these reports continue to rely on outdated data. “The problem is that it’s all old data,” says Walters. His claim is
that the negative energy numbers are derived from the data collected in the late 1980’s and early 1990s. = EndQuote.
52 posted on 06/24/2005 4:37:33 PM PDT by Keith in Iowa (Life's a beach - and Liberals are like the sand that gets in your swimsuit...)
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To: TheGeezer

Perhaps you had a different meaning in mind, but ethanol has a higher volumetric efficiency (or higher latent heat of evaporation) than gasoline, which is why it makes such a much better racing fuel.


53 posted on 06/24/2005 4:39:01 PM PDT by Mr. Lucky
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To: Graycliff

No.


54 posted on 06/24/2005 5:25:10 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: mikemikemikecubed
Ok, all you Chem E's out there, what's the route and economics to cat-cracking long chain fatty-acid tri-glycerides? (otherwise known as vegetable oils)

If the chains are C-16 to C-18, will they crack to yield octanes? Can we afford it?

55 posted on 06/24/2005 5:34:12 PM PDT by stboz
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To: pillbox_girl
There are high-starch corn hybrids available today, and more could be genetically engineered just as high-lysine strains were in the livestock-feeding days. Many other feed crops can produce ethanol in commercially useful quantities; corn is just the most abundant. And corn produces sizable quantities of byproducts that can contribute to the energy yield of corn by reducing the input requirements (most of the energy required comes in the distillation process and the stalk/cob/husk biomass of the shelled corn can be burned to feed the still).

Corn is not a universal solution, but burning my granny's underdrawers is preferable to dependency on the savages in the Middle East. I don't understand why people are so quick to attack ethanol as an alternative fuel. It almost seems like they're content to suckle at some Arab's teat for the rest of their lives.

56 posted on 06/24/2005 5:36:41 PM PDT by IronJack
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To: IronJack
Corn is not a universal solution, but burning my granny's underdrawers is preferable to dependency on the savages in the Middle East. I don't understand why people are so quick to attack ethanol as an alternative fuel. It almost seems like they're content to suckle at some Arab's teat for the rest of their lives.

Or some other foreign teat...Once again - you are so correct...

57 posted on 06/24/2005 5:41:43 PM PDT by Keith in Iowa (Life's a beach - and Liberals are like the sand that gets in your swimsuit...)
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To: Graycliff
will a gallon of ethanol produce the same amount of energy as a gallon of gasoline?

The answer may not be what you expect.

A gallon of ethanol will yield about 30% less mileage than a gallon of gasoline; however, a gallon of ethanol is still more energy efficient.

A gallon of ethanol will yeild 1.35 to 1.67 times the energy consumed in producing it. A gallon of gasoline yields only .805 times the energy consumed in producing it.

58 posted on 06/24/2005 5:55:55 PM PDT by Mr. Lucky
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To: mikemikemikecubed

Seems to me that if the taxes were taken off of gasoline, in many cases gasoline would fall by $1.00/gal or more.


59 posted on 06/24/2005 5:57:50 PM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: Mr. Lucky
Please elaborate. Are you asserting that E85 delivers better fuel economy than unleaded regular?

Isn't racing gasoline a mixture of fuel?

60 posted on 06/24/2005 6:45:15 PM PDT by TheGeezer
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