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New model 'permits time travel'
BBC ^ | 6/17/05 | Julianna Kettlewell

Posted on 06/17/2005 12:06:22 PM PDT by LibWhacker

If you went back in time and met your teenage parents, you could not split them up and prevent your birth - even if you wanted to, a new quantum model has stated.

Researchers speculate that time travel can occur within a kind of feedback loop where backwards movement is possible, but only in a way that is "complementary" to the present.

In other words, you can pop back in time and have a look around, but you cannot do anything that will alter the present you left behind.

The new model, which uses the laws of quantum mechanics, gets rid of the famous paradox surrounding time travel.

Paradox explained

Although the laws of physics seem to permit temporal gymnastics, the concept is laden with uncomfortable contradictions.

The main headache stems from the idea that if you went back in time you could, theoretically, do something to change the present; and that possibility messes up the whole theory of time travel.

Clearly, the present never is changed by mischievous time-travellers: people don't suddenly fade into the ether because a rerun of events has prevented their births - that much is obvious.

So either time travel is not possible, or something is actually acting to prevent any backward movement from changing the present.

For most of us, the former option might seem most likely, but Einstein's general theory of relativity leads some physicists to suspect the latter.

According to Einstein, space-time can curve back on itself, theoretically allowing travellers to double back and meet younger versions of themselves.

And now a team of physicists from the US and Austria says this situation can only be the case if there are physical constraints acting to protect the present from changes in the past.

Weird laws

The researchers say these constraints exist because of the weird laws of quantum mechanics even though, traditionally, they don't account for a backwards movement in time.

Quantum behaviour is governed by probabilities. Before something has actually been observed, there are a number of possibilities regarding its state. But once its state has been measured those possibilities shrink to one - uncertainty is eliminated.

So, if you know the present, you cannot change it. If, for example, you know your father is alive today, the laws of the quantum universe state that there is no possibility of him being killed in the past.

It is as if, in some strange way, the present takes account of all the possible routes back into the past and, because your father is certainly alive, none of the routes back can possibly lead to his death.

"Quantum mechanics distinguishes between something that might happen and something that did happen," Professor Dan Greenberger, of the City University of New York, US, told the BBC News website.

"If we don't know your father is alive right now - if there is only a 90% chance that he is alive right now, then there is a chance that you can go back and kill him.

"But if you know he is alive, there is no chance you can kill him."

In other words, even if you take a trip back in time with the specific intention of killing your father, so long as you know he is happily sitting in his chair when you leave him in the present, you can be sure that something will prevent you from murdering him in the past. It is as if it has already happened.

"You go back to kill your father, but you'd arrive after he'd left the room, you wouldn't find him, or you'd change your mind," said Professor Greenberger.

"You wouldn't be able to kill him because the very fact that he is alive today is going to conspire against you so that you'll never end up taking that path leads you to killing him."


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: mechanics; model; paradox; quantum; stringtheory; theory; time; timetravel; travel
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To: LibWhacker
Have none of these people seen "The Butterfly Effect".

Tampering with the past leads to disaster! Be warned.

141 posted on 06/19/2005 9:34:18 AM PDT by LibKill (Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.)
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To: <1/1,000,000th%

Can the people in the past travel to the future?


142 posted on 06/19/2005 9:37:48 AM PDT by Crawdad (I know we've only known each other 4 weeks and 3 days, but to me it seems like 9 weeks and 5 days)
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts

I read that story. It was drawn up like a comic book. Wonderful.


143 posted on 06/19/2005 9:42:40 AM PDT by Crawdad (I know we've only known each other 4 weeks and 3 days, but to me it seems like 9 weeks and 5 days)
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To: LibWhacker
Paging John Titor!
144 posted on 06/19/2005 9:57:52 AM PDT by Jonx6
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To: LibWhacker

I suspect our entire notion of time is an illusion.


145 posted on 06/19/2005 10:11:32 AM PDT by Age of Reason
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To: RegulatorCountry
Science has now proved predestination... but there's still no god.

Actually, Kurt Godel, a brilliant logician with a philosophical bent, in addition to producing a closed time-loop interpretation of relativity, provided an upgraded and stronger version of the famous Ontological Proof for the existence of God. Kurt Godel's Ontological Proof

146 posted on 06/19/2005 10:36:20 AM PDT by jgorris
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To: Age of Reason
I suspect our entire notion of time is an illusion.

That is precisely the argument of Kurt Godel. See A World Without Time.

147 posted on 06/19/2005 10:40:25 AM PDT by jgorris
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To: AxelPaulsenJr
No, but I plan on going back and buying stock of an upstart company called Wal-Mart.

Everyone's heard of Paul Allen, Bill Gates, and Equality 7-2521... haven't they?

148 posted on 06/19/2005 10:47:27 AM PDT by Equality 7-2521
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To: <1/1,000,000th%
"You can't travel into the past. You can only travel into the future"

ah.. but once you travel into the future, can you return? :-)

149 posted on 06/19/2005 10:52:07 AM PDT by Lloyd227
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To: LibWhacker

"people don't suddenly fade into the ether "

Unless they're visiting Aruba...


150 posted on 06/19/2005 10:55:50 AM PDT by HonoluluCharles
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To: LibWhacker

[Inhale...] 'ere.


151 posted on 06/19/2005 10:58:43 AM PDT by XEHRpa
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To: jgorris

Thanks for the link.


152 posted on 06/19/2005 11:12:13 AM PDT by Age of Reason
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To: jgorris

First define "god."

Then one can attempt to prove whether what you have defined exists or not.


153 posted on 06/19/2005 11:21:55 AM PDT by Age of Reason
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To: RegulatorCountry
In my purely amateurish understanding of how this theory works, you have a nearly limitless set of options to choose from this moment forward - but once you've made that choice, there's no going back. To my understanding, that doesn't qualify as predestination. Postdestination perhaps?

FWIW, wasn't there an episode that dealt with this issue in Star Trek: Next Generation?

154 posted on 06/19/2005 11:32:53 AM PDT by COBOL2Java (If this isn't the End Times it certainly is a reasonable facsimile...)
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To: LibWhacker

"Looks like "some one" has been watching too much science fiction"- Church Lady C;-)~


155 posted on 06/19/2005 12:00:48 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been ok'ed me to included some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: COBOL2Java

"In my purely amateurish understanding of how this theory works, you have a nearly limitless set of options to choose from this moment forward - but once you've made that choice, there's no going back."

But, according to the subject of this thread, there just might be the possibility of going back. And, in the act of "going back," you've altered an apparently limitless set of options going forward, effectively limiting these options to only those leading to the outcome of going back. Predestination of a sort. Try to visualise this, not from the perspective of the "now" being left, but from the perspective of the "now" destination, which would not be in the past to those inhabiting that "now."


156 posted on 06/20/2005 7:10:39 AM PDT by RegulatorCountry (Esse Quam Videre)
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To: RegulatorCountry

Not yet enough coffee to enable me to focus entirely on that, but I get the gist of your statement. Fascinating to ponder.


157 posted on 06/20/2005 7:18:40 AM PDT by COBOL2Java (If this isn't the End Times it certainly is a reasonable facsimile...)
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To: Monolight

Gibson's doing F451? I remember the old version - it wasn't bad.


158 posted on 06/20/2005 7:20:26 AM PDT by A Ruckus of Dogs
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To: thoughtomator

"In order for this to be true, there can be no free will."

Careful there, you're going to be called all sorts of derogatory names. In a highly intelligent and scientific manner, of course.


159 posted on 06/20/2005 7:25:21 AM PDT by RegulatorCountry (Esse Quam Videre)
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To: Lloyd227

No.


160 posted on 06/20/2005 8:22:52 AM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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