Posted on 06/13/2005 10:19:38 AM PDT by kiriath_jearim
Monday, 13 June, 2005, 14:58 GMT 15:58 UK
India to deport US missionaries
By Zubair Ahmed BBC News, Mumbai
Four American missionaries have been asked to leave India for what police say is a violation of visa regulations.
The missionaries were attacked by a Hindu mob in India's western city Mumbai (Bombay) on Saturday evening during a Bible reading session.
Police said three of them were treated for bruises and cuts in a hospital.
One of the assailants was released on bail after allegedly abducting one of the missionaries who are accused of trying to convert local Hindus.
'Stern action'
Police told the BBC that the men entered India on tourist visas, but were found preaching religion.
They say two of them have already left Mumbai, and the other two are waiting to catch the next available flight.
Police say a group of local Hindus beat up the missionaries, because they angered over their attempts to convert local Hindus.
But the missionaries told the police they were only holding a Bible reading session.
Mumbai Christians have condemned the attack, and urged the police to take stern action against those involved in the attack.
Dolphy D'Souza of the Bombay Catholics Sabha has accused the police of being lenient towards those involved in the attack.
But police say they have registered a case of abduction against one of the assailants who was produced in court and released on bail after the abducted missionary reappeared on Sunday morning.
Christians are often accused of forcibly converting the poor in India by bribing them with money and jobs.
But this is denied by the Christian community, which accounts for about two percent of India's one billion population.
Six years ago, a Hindu mob burnt alive an Australian missionary and his two young sons in the eastern state of Orissa.
The man charged with their murder was sentenced to death, but last month his sentence was commuted to life imprisonment.
Most probably. The Southern Baptists are probably the most resourceful and well organized of all Evangelical churches. They are also extremely devout, and some of the nicest people. If you ever get a chance, you should sit down and have a discussion with them.
wrt the insurgencies: The sepratists in Nagaland and (some0 in Tripura use the one of the facts that "We are majority Christian" as one of the reasons for demanding a separate homeland. A US Dollar goes a long way in India, so stirring up mischief (or agendas of missionaries being misused) is not far-fetched.
You say: "I think the best bet for India right now is to ban these foreign missionaries completely for their own safety."
I agree. As long as we are insecure and plagued with these fissiparous forces, this is the best option.
You say: "In a free society, people are free to choose to believe whatever religion one chooses, or chooses not to believe at all."
No Indian will disagree.
You say: "As such, all religions are competing in the marketplace and a free society should provide for access to all religions for the sake of its own people."
May I bring the analogy of Globalization in here? Protectionist barriers in trade were removed only when it was thought that the locals were sufficiently prepared.
PS: Have you read that story by Somerset Maughm about the preacher who went to the Pacific Island to convert the locals?
You say: "When Hindus attack Christians in Bombay, they don't realize that they put Hindus in the rest of the world on the defensive for no good reason whatsoever."
I know. The psyops in such articles can do immense damage (as on FR here itself... )
You say: "...motivates these Evangelical groups. They believe strongly in good and evil and when they hear these stories it enforces their beliefs that there is evil in this world trying to stop the spread of the Bible."
It is almost a viscios cylce isn't it? Foreign missionaries come to preach in India (mostly to tribals), some Shiv Sena/VHP types beat, MSM gives VERY WIDE coverage,
massive psyops/PR damage to India's image, even more missionaries in the line to convert heathens (as they have been challanged). Who gains out of this, I wonder?
Another question, do Evanglical groups have a strong influence on the current US adminsitration?
I believe I am having one right now :)
Oh but I am not a good Baptist. Trust me, they wouldn't differentiate between us.
It seems like Indians should have an advantage in the marketplace of religion. Hinduism is the only major surviving pagan religion. As such, it is ready for philosophical war with any other religion. Bring on every other religion and let people choose. That is already the case in India. It has over 20 million Christians, over 250 million Muslims, Pharsees, Sikhs, Buddhists. They should not worry about some poor southern preacher, or some college kid who is preaching for fun.
While the title is focused on the deport, and there may also have been some problems with the missionaries for not respecting the culture of India, what is to be condemn is the act of torture. Of course, it doesn't mean that US is always justified in every religious incident, and if that was the case, that is our problem to be condemned even this case was reversed which the Indians were to be the victim, but also would be condemned for the aggressiveness. What is to be said is that these incidents give bad impressions of the nationalities of the aggressors. People should always remember they represent their country and nationality that could harm relations between the two. I hope this will alarm both India and America so it would not happen again, and relations between India and America will continue to be in good shape.
There are plenty of Indians in the US practicing their religion freely and freely interact with Americans if they desire to do so. Iskcon has recruited thousands of Americans within its ranks. It would be wrong for any American to attack them on the pretense that they are trying to convert Americans. Come on, this is the 21st century. Sectarian violence has no place in civil society.
Those people feel like they don't belong.(Ofcourse until the next war, and they are needed to fight for india). Christianity is just a convenient scapegoat, for other problems nobody wants to talk about. Goa and Kerala christians don't have problems being part of india.
This is one frequent excuse made up to explain India's seperatist movements. The people of India vary in race, ethnicity, culture, language, wealth and appearance every hundred miles or so, in any direction, across the country. What makes the NE so special? States like Himachal Pradesh and Sikkim have sizable Mongoloid populations, and separatism doesn't exist there.
The NE's main separatist group, the ULFA, has its leader (by name Parua or so) having distinctly Indo-Aryan features. So do most of the rest of their cadre.
India does have an evident record of its regions which develop a Hindu minority getting into separatist movements, a la Kashmir Vale, NE, etc, and this is a major worry for many if not most Indians.
Kerala and Goa do have sizable Christian populations, but not enough to challenge Hinduism as a dominant religion there.
A lot of black people or muslims would disagree with that.
I used to live in the bay area and after 9/11 things did get dicey. Remember the LA riots. That wasnt too long ago.
Religion is a more sensitive issue in India and freedom of faith is not quite the same as freedom to convert other people by marketing your faith.
Those people feel like they don't belong.(Ofcourse until the next war, and they are needed to fight for india). Christianity is just a convenient scapegoat, for other problems nobody wants to talk about. Goa and Kerala christians don't have problems being part of india.
Sorry but I cant pick up on your anti-India bait, not this time now that you have chosen to go overboard with your diatribe.
This kind of anti-India/Hindu tirade has become a regular feature at FR and it saddens to see that otherwise knowledgeable people like yourself indulging in it and joining the anti-Hindu/Indian bandwagon. And you take this oppurtunity to malign the Indian army (again for the action of an individual). And like every other anti-Indian (that I have run into at FR), you had to resort LIES. Especially with these lines:
The people of the NE physically look different from most of india due to their oriental features. There is a good deal of prejudice and discrimination in the way they are treated, from regular indians as well as the government agencies.
Those people feel like they don't belong.(Ofcourse until the next war, and they are needed to fight for india). Christianity is just a convenient scapegoat, for other problems nobody wants to talk about.
What problems nobody wants to talk about? Ok lets hear it! They dont feel like they belong to India do they? And just who are needed to fight for India?
Well the Indian Army recruits from all over India and that includes the NE although not more than 10% of Indian Army comes from NE.
The people of the NE physically look different from most of india due to their oriental features... (you say) People of any part of India look different from most of India if you are aware of our diversity. What about dark South Indians? fair Kashmiris and Punjabis ? (If you care to see my photo on my home page you would know that I look different from most Indians) And might I add the "chinky" population isnt a small population restricted to NE but a large population one starting from UP, HP, Kashmir and WB (and also including Napalese, Tibetans, Kumao and Garhwalis). And if they are called names like "chinkies" then a lot of other people are called by different names. My folks are called Bongs (Bengalis), Gujaratis are called Gujjus , Sikhs are called Surds, dark skinned south Indians are called Madrasis or Annas....... so whats your point?
OK what else? Goa and Kerala christians don't have problems being part of india. (you say) Well here is a news for you : Goa and Kerala dont have Christian majority, Mizoram does. And in Manipur and Nagaland very often there has been fierce ethnic clensing between tribals and neo-converts to Christianity. Especially between Khasis and Christians. And Khasis are not the usual Hindus (you so despise).
There is a good deal of prejudice and discrimination in the way they are treated, from regular indians as well as the government agencies.......Those people feel like they don't belong.(
Pure BS. Not even worth a comment.
There was the recent rape and murder, by soldiers, of one of their women. The army ignored the whole thing until there was widespread rioting.
Might I remind you that you should be the last person to point a finger at the Indian Army (my brother died fighting in the IA) after all that we have seen in Iraq, Abu Gharaib and Gitmo.
Just what in hell have you seen in Abu Grahib (sp?) and Gitmo?
What??? What are YOU doing on FReerepublic?
Go Back to D.U.!
My original post was a response to an argument that I have heard mentioned several times...that the NE has separatist groups because it has a lot of christians, and in some cases a majority. My answer to this is that it is a simplistic, cookie cutter view, that borders on being bigoted (but I won't hastily call anyone here anti christian because that would be silly and childish). It is as dumb as saying that the tamil separatism in Sri Lanka is due to them being majority hindus in northern Sri Lanka, or that all hindus are thugs due to the actions of the Saffron groups. It is as dumb as saying the christians in Kerala or Goa would be traitors, if only they had the majority in their respective states. I am not saying that all so-called "christians" are angels either.
The people of the northeast have been fierce and rebellious even before independence. They fiercely resisted British rule, and way back they also used to be headhunters. Could it be that this characteristic contributes to their rebelliousness. And yes of course I did mention discrimination. The incident I mentioned involved soldiers of the Assam rifles, and the army command and the central government tried to ignore the situation until there was widespread and continuous rioting. Recently there was the college girl in Delhi who was raped and the police sat on their hands till it made national news. How many big ticket items of national pride are in the northeast (not counting W. Bengal). Any IITs? Any high tech or research institutes worth being proud of. I may be wrong, there may be a lot going on. Also, on a side note calling them chinkies is wrong. It is not the same as saying gujjus or madrasis. Just my opinion.
By the way, very heroic and admirable of your brother's sacrifice. I was not talking about him anyway. I will ignore the gitmo, iraq, abu ghraib remark because it is nonsensical and completely off-topic. This is all I have to say on this. You can get worked up all you want over it. I did look at your picture on your homepage.. you look just like any other indian..only thing different is the goofy glasses.
Kerala and Goa do have sizable Christian populations, but not enough to challenge Hinduism as a dominant religion there.
I thought we were talking about separatism, not challenging hinduism.
There is one thing econ --> note that Catholic and Orthodox missionaries aren't treated the same way as Baptists are -- and I've heard Baptists/Evangelists go on about how Hindus worship demons etc. that IS insulting and they alienate people. What's up with that? Mainline Churchs will state more simply: We believe in Christ, for these reasons. You are free to believe what you want, but we disagree with you. If you want to know why, ask us. The Evangelists tend to antagonise people straight away and get attacked for it. A bit simplistic an explanation but I'm sure that is ONE facet.
Your post to Gengis was pretty sensible, and you have done a lot to clarify your earlier stand, which many of us have obviously misunderstood.
About the presence of a major institute in the NE, IIT Guwahati, in Assam, is one of the leading ones of the seven or so IITs in India. And this particular IIT gets the benefit of the most up-to-date infrastructure. Besides, the NE also has an NIT (National Institute of Technology), in the city of Silchar, Assam, and this too is one of the handful, nine or ten I think, of the NITs all across the country.
Not to mention the multitudes of lawmakers, federal officers, bureaucrats, police chiefs, election commissioners and the like, who have an NE origin, and are prominent across the breadth of the country. HT Sangliana, the police chief, JM Lyngdoh, the fiery Chief Election Commission officer for all elections held in the whole of India, PA Sangma the politician et al are people of immense repute across India, and hail from the NE.
The rebellious nature is most prominent among the hill tribes, and not among the mainstream populace. Many are left-leaning too. And they aren't a very popular separatist movement either, or else they would have been independent a long time ago. Presently, the major issue there is the illegal immigration of Bangladeshi Muslims into the border towns of the NE states, to the extent of Muslims making up majority in some towns. This has infuriated the general population of NE much more than the presence of federal troops there. And the construction of an electrified fence along the border is a primary demand of the elected governments of these states.
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