Posted on 06/06/2005 1:06:41 PM PDT by Diana in Wisconsin
I agree! The Sodomites are doing their level best to corrupt our beloved Church and the most common advice I receive from fellow FReepers is to leave and find another one. Sometimes I feel like I am trying to hold back the tide, but I for one will continue to pray and work to keep the church I attend as true to the Word as I can. It may not be much, but I must try!
Seems only fair. The first Lutheran theologian was, after all, a former Roman Catholic.
Luther would not belong to the ELCA. Shame on them for using his name. Someone should sue and make them prove that they have anything in common with traditional Lutheran doctrine.
No, they just placed the cardinal that condoned the most pedophiles in a position of favor at the vatican, and gave him the honor of presiding over JP II's funeral (are you awake?)
I really like my congregation, and that's what has kept me around despite my disgust with the ELCA. I had planned on waiting until the Churchwide Assembly this summer, but I don't know if I can wait that long. It certainly weighs heavily on my heart.
You must expose it & then leave. This is bigger than your congregation. The creators of the ELCA had this in mind at the merger. The only thing your congregation can do, is leave it.
Homosexual Agenda Plus Watch Out For Lutherans Ping.
When a religious body starts supporting "gay" rights to the point of ordaining homosexuals, it is time to run not walk to the nearest exit.
Reminds me - isn't the minister who's complaining about the intolerant atmosphere at the Air Force Academy Lutheran? And did anyone see her picture? I did, and it wasn't a pretty sight.
Let me know if you want on/off this pinglist.
Note to Grampa Dave - I wonder what you can find if you look up her name...
I wonder what Martin Luther would think of the Lutheran Church today? (Excepting the Missouri Synod)
"I love the Catholic Church also, but the Lutherans have better hymns, LOL."
Indeed the Lutherans by far have the best hymns of any church. However, the Catholics have two things going for them that the Lutherans do not. Gregorian chants, and the Catholic Church by far has the best visuals. You couldn't beat the pomp and circumstance of the Pope's funeral, and the ceremonies surrounding the election of a new Pope. So Lutherans have the corner on audio, and the Catholics have the corner on visual.
"I agree about the hymns. Why don't you come back to Rome and lend your song to us! :)"
Actually, about 35 plus or minus years ago, there was a big stink between the Lutherans and Catholics here in the U.S. because the Catholic Church (where the singing pre-Vatican II was done primarily by boys choirs or by Greg. chanters) started to introduce singing by the parishioners in their services. But they didn't have much in the line of hymns because the singing hadn't been done by the "audience" much before. So they swiped many to most of the hymns out of the Lutheran hymnal. There was a lawsuit. Don't know how it was settled, but obviously it was.
Personally, I liked it better w/the boys choirs and chanters. Bring back pre-Vatican II. It took so much beauty and mystery out of the Catholic Church. But I have high hopes for Pope Benedict XVI. I believe he will turn some of the worst parts of V-II around. I think BXVI will be a great Pope. May he live a long, long, time and fool all of those (mostly libs) who think he is merely an interim Pope. I'll bet he revs up to high gear real fast.
I am a convert from ELCA to the Missouri Synod and I couldn't be happier. I feel that my church is a community of believers, and it is a source of strength for me. My uncle helped start a Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran church in Waukesha, and I know that he really happy with the results of his church. Because, he has made a lot of friends through his church, that have the same beliefs that he does.
I guess all that I am saying is that WELS and the Missouri synod are so much better than ELCA. I am not trying to trash the ELCA because they do good work in certain areas, such as using their church for meeting areas for AA, but I don't think I have ever seen an adult bible study at an ELCA church. (maybe I missed it in the bulletin.) To me I got the impression that the ELCA is more of a country club church than a place to focus on the Word of God.
> Let's not confuse the ELCA with the LCMS.....
Tell that to the current LCMS - uh - "Praesidium" (not pompous at all, are they?)
"and gave him the honor of presiding over JP II's funeral (are you awake?)"
This is a bit of a stretch, and I'll bet you know it. Cardinal Law did not "preside" over JP II's funeral, Cardinal (now Pope) Ratzinger did. Law presided over one service at the local Rome church that he was titular head of, for one prayers for the Pope ceremony. As a Cardinal, each is given a local church in Rome that they are attached to. Law is still a Cardinal, and thus got one too. But he did not preside at all over the funeral of JP II. A bit of hyperbole here on your part.
I am not trying to pick a fight, because I do have respect for the Catholic church (I have used the church's teaching to sort out the moral issue of homosexuality.) and I also thought that the pope's funeral was cool. But couldn't that money have been better spent on helping others.
"Some of the best Theologians in the R.C. Church today seem to be former Lutherans according to what I have read in the past 20 years."
My favorite who did just this is Richard John Neuhaus, a Catholic priest who had been a Lutheran. His father was a Lutheran pastorin Canada. Neuhaus is a brilliant theologian (you can find him on EWTN TV a lot) and was one of the main commentators in Rome on the funeral and the election of the new Pope for EWTN. I love to listen to him speak. He is funny, witty, down to earth, while at the same time speaking of complex theological subject matters understandably. He has a website: FirstThings.com if anyone wants to check him out. He's written many a book, as you can see on his site. He's a brilliant man.
"Reminds me - isn't the minister who's complaining about the intolerant atmosphere at the Air Force Academy Lutheran? And did anyone see her picture? I did, and it wasn't a pretty sight."
I'll say it for you. She looks just like a dyke, and probably is one. There.
The 1991 Churchwide Assembly (CWA) – the highest legislative body of the ELCA – affirmed "... that gay and lesbian people, as individuals created by God, are welcome to participate fully in the life of the congregations of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America." This policy was reaffirmed by the 1995 CWA, and the 1999 CWA further encouraged discerning conversation about homosexuality and the inclusion of gay and lesbian persons in our common life and mission. As a result of CWA action in 2001, ELCA Presiding Bishop Mark Hanson addressed ELCA membership in August 2003, noting that the "...assembly’s actions mandated that this church engage in a study on homosexuality and a study on sexuality. The first study is to deal with the blessing of same-gender unions and the rostering of persons in committed gay or lesbian relationships. The second study is to lead to the development of a social statement on sexuality."
Same-sex unions
The ELCA has no policy on the blessing of same-sex unions. In 1993 the Conference of Bishops (65 synodical bishops elected by congregations on their territories) stated that there was no basis in Scripture or tradition for an official ceremony by this church for the blessing of same-sex unions, but that "Nevertheless, we express trust in and will continue dialogue with those pastors and congregations who are in ministry with gay and lesbian persons, and affirm their desire to explore the best ways to provide pastoral care for all to whom they minister." The Conference of Bishops provides advice and counsel but is not an ELCA legislative body.
Homosexual rostered people
The current policy of the ELCA regarding homosexual rostered people is stated in its "Definition and Guidelines for Discipline" (revised 1993) and "Vision and Expectations...," (1990). It is the policy of the ELCA that all single rostered people, including those who are homosexual in their self-understanding, are expected to abstain from sexual relationships."
"But couldn't that money have been better spent on helping others."
You know, the same could be said about just anything. The Libs say it all the time to try to get rid of the space program. The money could be better used for our social programs, they say. It would be a dreary world indeed if there was no art, music, sculptures, and architecture that inspire a feeling of awe (in the case of churches, a kind of mystical awe).
Imagine in the late middle ages or early Renaissance, and you, a mere peasant, enter one of the gothic cathedrals. The impression it would create, the almost mystical feeling of entering a different world, a religious realm, where you could escape all the hardships of your life, have peace and quiet to soothe the soul, and learn from the many biblical scenes portrayed in the stained glass art, the biblical truths (many couldn't read in those days). Life doesn't always have to be dour.
Money can I suppose always be spent on "something better", but who chooses what the something better will be? Would you want the something better to go to social welfare programs that encourage people to be reliant on the gov't? And do you not think that the Catholic Church, to a fault sometimes in my opinion, doesn't champion the poor and has agencies all over the world to help the poor? That doesn't mean you have to strip the beauty out of the liturgical service. In fact, it's one of the major aspects of the religious experience I love. Pre-Vatican II ruined a lot of the beauty and mystery of the Catholic Church. I hope this is turned around. I don't want some kumbaya guitarist playing at my service. Give me pipe organs, give me great hymns, give me incense, statuary, beautiful churches, give me liberty, or give me.....oops, getting carried away here. You get my gist, I'm sure.
Well, I think she believes that it's open to intrepretation, and I think she's a quack.
Any church leader that says homosexuality isn't a sin shouldn't be leading it.
Well, I think she believes that it's open to intrepretation, and I think she's a quack.
Any church leader that says homosexuality isn't a sin shouldn't be leading it.
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