Fair Tax, Bad Tax: The National Sales Tax's Insidious Influence

Tax Notes | 6/2/2005 | Joseph J. Thorndike

[Your Nightmare]

Well, why don't you get us misdirected sheep back on track and show us the path to true glory by describing to us your outstanding ideas for tax reform.

There are a lot of better options. A flat tax, a consumed income tax, or even a credit-invoice VAT. All consumption taxes, all better options than a NRST, and all have a reasonable chance of being implemented (obviously some more than others).

[Eagle of Liberty]

The title doesn't say the FairTax is bad because it's simple and people understand it.

No, but the title does say that it is bad. Here are some excerpts which accomplish the second part of the statement:

Taxes are tedious, at least for most people......In such an environment, the Fair Tax makes things even worse. It degrades the quality of public debate by encouraging Americans to latch onto something familiar amid a raft of confusing alternatives.......Everyone understands the sales tax.

What I infer from his article is that:
1) People are stupid and only understand simple concepts.
2) The Fair Tax hijacks a simple concept.
3) The Fair Tax is bad because stupid people can understand it and because it hijacks a simple concept.

[Your Nightmare]

So, YN... are you going to chastise WG for his "cut and paste" tactics, or do you only reserve that invective for AG?

Are you really trying to compare the frequency of WG's posts vs. AG's? Come on...

[Cyber Liberty]

I'd have to disagree with you on this, and as it's a matter of personal opinion, neither of us will ever know unless/until it happens. However, I'd make the same bet (if I gambled) that without dropping the income tax for a sales tax, we will see some form of VAT or general sales tax added to the income tax in the next 10 years.

I am in agreement with you. It is just my opinion I am posting, and there likely will never be a way to prove it one way or another. Unless the "Fair Tax" proposal is implemented, which I doubt will happen anyway.

[Eagle of Liberty]

My sales tax ("Fair Tax") = 2 taxes argument stands unrefuted.

What if the 16th Amendment was abolished?

[Cyber Liberty]

From my post #46:

Here's my meager reasoning: Even if the 16th Amendment were to be repealed, Congress can always claim some "National Emergency" and try to impose an income tax, anyway. It was tried before the Amendment, and it took a trip to the Supreme Court to stop it. That means, if the 16th amendment weren't there, we're one court decision away from having the income tax reimposed. Does anybody here think this Supreme Court would make the same findings as the pre-16th amendment Court?

[Protagoras]

Get ready for the nastiest name calling and personal attacks since the religion or WOD threads.

[eskimo]

This guy says Fair Tax is bad because it's simple and people understand it.

I think I understand it. This "fair tax" is going to eliminate corporate tax burden by taxing again all the hard-earned, already-taxed, savings of those who retire and need that money to live.

[Sprite518]

What an idiot is all I can say.

Go Fair tax!

[Willie Green]

Are you really trying to compare the frequency of WG's posts vs. AG's? Come on...

Besides, my posts are my own work, not the canned spam that AG shills.

[kevkrom]

Are you really trying to compare the frequency of WG's posts vs. AG's? Come on...

So, that would be a "no", then. Ok, thanks for clearing that up.

[carenot]

"The sales tax, by contrast, is easy to understand. It clearly taxes consumption by focusing popular attention on the act of consumption, with much talk of cash registers and such."

Will that do?

[kevkrom]

That means, if the 16th amendment weren't there, we're one court decision away from having the income tax reimposed. Does anybody here think this Supreme Court would make the same findings as the pre-16th amendment Court?

I beleive the currently proposed repeal bills (Constitutional amednments) all not only repeal the 16th Amednment, but also explicitly forbid income and payroll taxes. While the Supreme Court is not exactly reliable, they'd have a hard time justifying doing something counter to precise, clear Constitutional language.

[Your Nightmare]

Take off your FairTax-colored glasses and read it again.

1) People are stupid and only understand simple concepts.

It doesn't say this, it says other plans aren't familiar and thus require some education to understand. But the FairTaxers hijack the discussion and make that education more difficult. If you want an example just look at any thread on Free Republic that is even remotely tax related.

The Fair Tax hijacks a simple concept.

No, it says the FairTax is a simple, but bad, concept that hijacks the debate. This is a disservice to people who want tax reform.

The Fair Tax is bad because stupid people can understand it and because it hijacks a simple concept.

No, the FairTax is bad for reason other than it's simple nature. Despite it shortcomings, people gravitate to it because it's familiar and they are misled (intentional or not) about it's details. The most important being the actual amount of tax that would be due on purchases.

[Your Nightmare]

Get ready for the nastiest name calling and personal attacks since the religion or WOD threads.

Yup. It's already starting to appear!

[Eagle of Liberty]

No, it says the FairTax is a simple, but bad, concept that hijacks the debate. This is a disservice to people who want tax reform.

No, it says:

Everyone understands the sales tax. Most Americans pay one every day, and those who don't probably revel in the fiscal probity of their state lawmakers. Supporters of the national sales tax have capitalized on that familiarity.

Have capitalized on that familiarity = hijacked a simple concept - synonyms anyone?

And why can't FairTaxers join in the debate? You just want to shut them up like this author? I could say the same thing about people who support taxing income in any way.

You have mentioned some alternatives, now win me over by telling me WHY they are better.

[Your Nightmare]

And why can't FairTaxers join in the debate? You just want to shut them up like this author?

The reality is that the debate about the FairTax among the people who matter is already over. It was rejected and "sometime later this summer, President Bush's commission on federal tax reform will probably put it out of its misery."

[Your Nightmare]

You have mentioned some alternatives, now win me over by telling me WHY they are better.

Aren't you familar with them?

[ancient_geezer]

A Taxreform bump for you all.

If you would like to be added to this ping list let me know.

John Linder in the House(HR25) & Saxby Chambliss Senate(S25), offer a comprehensive bill to kill all income and SS/Medicare payroll taxes outright, and provide a IRS free replacement in the form of a retail sales tax:

H.R.25,S.25
A bill to promote freedom, fairness, and economic opportunity by repealing the income tax and other taxes, abolishing the Internal Revenue Service, and enacting a national retail sales tax to be administered primarily by the States.

Refer for additional information:

• http://www.fairtax.org,
• http://www.myfairtax.org/,
• http://www.salestax.org,
• http://www.geocities.com/cmcofer/ftax.html

[Cyber Liberty]

I beleive the currently proposed repeal bills (Constitutional amednments) all not only repeal the 16th Amednment, but also explicitly forbid income and payroll taxes.

That would certainly sweeten the pot for this old cynic....