Posted on 06/01/2005 4:18:44 PM PDT by quidnunc
Whatever you think of European integration, there is something inspiring about 20 million people who, having been told what to do by their most respected politicians and after listening attentively, then do the exact opposite.
This week’s referendums in France and the Netherlands are probably the most significant event in European history since the end of the Cold War. As in Germany after its citizens found that they could smash symbolic chunks out of the Berlin Wall with impunity, everyday life in Europe may go on as before, but nothing will ever be quite the same. But don’t expect to hear much serious debate about the significance of this popular revolt against “the idea of Europe” for many months. The first reaction will be to pretend, or even to believe sincerely, that nothing much has happened.
In France, where I am this week, the referendum result has created a media cottage-industry of dismissive rationalisations. The most popular and reassuring for Europhiles is the idea that the referendum fiasco was nothing more than the latest instance of Jacques Chirac’s notorious inability to read the public mood. President Chirac’s perverse relationship with public opinion took another bizarre twist with the appointment of Dominique de Villepin as Prime Minister. M de Villepin is seen as the alter ego, almost a clone, of the President. His appointment is a direct, provocative rejection of voters’ demands for a new kind of politics.
But while M Chirac may make a perfect scapegoat for the French media, his unpopularity cannot be blamed for the vote in the Netherlands, nor for the anti-EU sentiment in Denmark, Sweden and Britain. The political establishment must therefore move on to its next excuse: people are not voting against Europe, but against globalisation and market economics.
-snip-
Snide and snippy.
"The population of the Republic continues to grow robustly. The portion of it that Le Pen refers to as "les francais de souche" - meaning ethnically white French - has a low fertility rate. But they are not the only French, of course."
And therein lies the problem. As France's population is considerably less than the U.S., the process of turning France into something that no longer is representative of French culture as we have known it, will occur much faster. Soon it will not be the same France as before. You say many of the minorities in France are from Africa. What you don't say is that many of them are also Muslim. So, what you've got is a lot of Muslims. You say they will become secular and distinctly French in behavior. Dream on. Muslims do not assimilate well anywhere in the world. They owe their allegiance not to the state but to their religion. It is no different in France than it is anywhere else. I might also remind you that no matter where you go in the world, the source of most conflicts are between Muslims and everyone else. So your dream of assimilation into French culture by Muslims is just that, a dream. You will see, if you live for at least 10 years, what the results will be if unchecked immigration from Muslim lands continues in France. France won't be France anymore. It will be Francarabia.
As I am sure you already know, there is no such thing as a "secular muslim".
Those who bend towards the black rock, do not believe in separation of church and state.
As to "secular" folks of "muslim origin", in the main, they approach life with the same basic cultural templates as their ancestors did.
That is a human thing.
islam's, theology and cultural norms/values, are the sources of islam's conflict with the entire non-islamic world.
"Do you have any reason why your statistics of Muslim population vary so much from those often read?"
Yes.
Because the numbers often read here are hysterical, inflated, and wrong. They are generated by people who have an axe to grind with France. France is written of as a country that is submerging in Muslims. America has twice the Hispanic population as France has people of Muslim origin, and yet France is submerging into Eurabia, while America is...what?
Is America dissolving into Mexico?
And if so, is the vaunted President George Bush doing one thing to stop it? Other than refuse to close the border and offer amnesty to speed the process? Well? I read fire and brimstone and hellfire ejected at France, which in fact has one half the proportion of Muslims as America has of Hispanics, and given a sea between France and North Africa, a decidedly less severe illegal immigration problem. I read how France is doomed and deserves it.
So, is America also doomed, given twice the inundation of foreigners already that has transpired in America? At least in France there has been an aggressive effort by the state itself to expel illegal aliens. And President George Bush, has he done the same in America? Is the American Border Patrol, controlled by the American President, gladly accepting the assistance of these American "Minutemen"? Or is the American government actively seeking to discredit, disgrace and humiliate these "Minutemen" and to permit the flood of aliens to continue unchecked? Hmmmmm?
So, France is going to drown, with 6.5% of its people of Muslim origin, because France is stupid and "does nothing about this" (when actually France is quite aggressive about identifying and deporting illegals). But America is either hunky dory, destined to sail through the millennia the paragon of superiority because the Americans do not allow their country to drown in foreigners? Is that it?
Or is it that Americans are drowning too, and that the American ship has taken on twice as much water as the French already...in which case America is not so much wiser and better put together than France to endure the ages. is it?
There are those here who exult (in an utterly exaggerated and unrealistic) vision of future French "dhimmitude" because of an imagined Muslim invasion, and who gloat at American superiority. Well, senor, you have taken on twice the water as France already. Perhaps all will drown in a sea of brown, but that would mean that America was precisely as stupid as France is accused of being here, wouldn't it?
In Kosovo, the Muslims were Muslims.
In France, most of the people whose parents were Muslims in North Africa are not Muslims. They are secular. They do not practice their religion. They are the same as the Catholics who are baptised in a church, married in a church, and buried in a church, and never see the inside of one again.
Correct. The secular Muslims are simply French with brown skin. And they predominate among the Beurs.
Most practicing Muslims in France are very moderate.
And most Beurs are not practicing Muslims.
Quite a few are, but especially among the young, most are not.
I'll just stick with my post # 25.
In France, most of the people whose parents were Muslims in North Africa are not Muslims. They are secular.
Methinks you are incredibly myopic about the muslims. There are no secular Muslims, not deep down inside. Wait untl they turn on you. They will one day, you know.
It seems that it took this vote in France and the Netherlands to get insightful reporting from the news media. Better late than never.
From now on, Europe will be judged not by rhetoric, but by results. For this, we all owe a debt of gratitude to the voters of France and the Netherlands.
Indeed we do.
The difference, mademoiselle or monsieur, is not about superiority but that our browns are Catholic and therefore European in outlook as is America itself. Your browns despite your pretensions of assimilation are Non-European in culture and will always be so. We wish you well when the Jihad begins, but you must understand Americans will never again spill their blood on French soil.
"Methinks you are incredibly myopic about the muslims. There are no secular Muslims, not deep down inside. Wait untl they turn on you. They will one day, you know."
I simply do not believe there is a Muslim "gene". Islam is a belief system, like Christianity, or Marxism. If one has the belief system, one is a Muslim (or a Christian, or a Marxist). If one does not, then one is not.
As to being naive, no I do not believe I am naive. There are several people of North African Muslim origin in my family, by marriage. I am afraid that I simply do not share the pessimism of the Americans or of Jean-Marie about these people. Nobody is going to turn on anybody.
"Your browns despite your pretensions of assimilation are Non-European in culture and will always be so."
That is the great gamble on human nature that we all must take.
Since all of the white European civilizations of the world, including America, are in demographic decline, numbers can only be sustained through an infusion of blood from the rest of the world.
Half of the brown skinned people in the French Republic are not North Africans but black Africans or from the Caribbean departments.
The rest are from North Africa and are Muslim in origin.
So, is Islam a genetic trait?
That seems to be the prevailing belief among American commentators here.
I think that Islam is an idea, and that ideas must compete. I expect that assimilation is proceding apace, that is what I see, and that there will be no jihad in France, nor anything very much like it, ever.
I expect that with intermarriage and metissage, it will no longer be able to be told who is of what origin, precisely, and it will not matter, other than as a matter of color.
I also expect that the best tagine in the world will continue to be gotten in Paris.
"Beur" is "verlan", which is to say inverted slang for "Arabe", inflected by the idea of Berber. "Les Beurs" are the Arabs of France, North African by origin.
This is the great challenge of France, to assimilate les Beurs.
Thanks
Are they the ones who appear in the morning to sweep the streets of Paris? (Forgive the stupid questions, my time in France was too short to understand everything)
Human nature is universal. Culture is not. Engage in all the fantasies you want, but you French are not assimilating your Muslim populations.
So, is Islam a genetic trait? That seems to be the prevailing belief among American commentators here.
Once again, you misinterpret what is being said. We are talking about culture, not race. You are not assimilating your Muslim populations. When was the last time you took an evening stroll in La Zone?
I expect that with intermarriage and metissage, it will no longer be able to be told who is of what origin, precisely, and it will not matter, other than as a matter of color.
You are full of expectations. That is guess work on your part, with no reference to reality. Keep dreaming that dream of French cultural superiority and irresistabitly. Whoever said that Romanticism was minimal in France was wrong.
I also expect that the best tagine in the world will continue to be gotten in Paris.
How nice that you have an appetite for lamb. Sort of like the adventures of Flaubert, except you don't have to travel very far. I do hope that you don't get indigestion any time soon.
btt 4 l8r
Just thought I would add my two cents. Anyone with an interest in the social problems of France should take a look at the film "La Haine". It was shown to the French Govt to inform them of the problems of their Immigrant Ghettoes. Secularist immigrant and islamic militants probably both have an equal affront to france. The ghettoesque nature has the numbers but the Islamics have the mentaliity.
Thanks for the information.
"If I understand you and the posters who followed you, America is being transformed into Mexico, and yet the government of the United States does nothing to stop this?"
Amazing, isn't it?
Almost as amazing as writing a 400 page constitution without consulting the people who have to live under it, and expecting them to like it.
Elitism is as elitism does.
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