Ark of the Covenant's discovery imminent?

WorldNetDaily ^ | 5/28/05 | Dr. Kelly Hollowell

[AlguyA]

"I disagree."

(sigh)

All that writing, and you didn't even address the fact that Jesus tells us HE is the New Covenant in Matthew, Luke and Mark. Frankly, everything you say I have no problem with. Jeus is the mediator of the New Covenant. Yet, it was His death and resurrection, the spilling of His blood, which signifies the Covenant. Frankly, the Ark of the Covenant did NOT contain the actual Covenant between God and the Jewish people, the actual agreement. It contained, among other things, the Ten Commandments -the signification of that Covenant.

Also, I have no problem with considering all Christians as the Ark of the New Covenant, though I believe St. Bonaventure was closer noting that the specific reference in Revelations could signify Our Lord, Himself. For example, the rod of Aaron signified the sacradotal nature of his calling in the same way Jesus is our High Priest.

However, the point remains: the symbol of signification of the Old Covenant were the stone tablets, the Ark carried these. By the same token, the signification of the New Covenant was Jesus Christ, and it was Mary who carried Him.

[Zechariah11]

More . . .

Matthew 1:25 "And he Knew her not *UNTIL* (EOS OU) she brought forth her son, the firstborn (PRWTOTOKON)..."

Edgar J. Goodspeed, unequivocally one of the greatest modern Bible scholars, writes in referring to the incident in Mark 3:
"It is noteworthy that none of Jesus' brothers was included, but the reason is very clear; they did not look upon his great ideas and lofty aims with sympathy and understanding, indeed, they made determined efforts to deter Him from His work and even came with his mother from Nazareth to Capernaum, to Peter's house, to persuade him to give it up."

Mark 6:3 "Is this not the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of Jacob (James), Jose (Joseph), and Judah (Jude) and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?"

"Is this not the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of Jacob (James), Jose (Joseph), and Judah (Jude) and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?" This Markan quote tells us that Jesus had at least two sisters.

: Link to The Scriptorium

[ZOTnot]

OK, now.....

This is the third reference to the 'red heifer' on this thread. What are all of you talking about?....

Zot

[SunkenCiv]

See next message for the longish, real reply. :')

[SunkenCiv]

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[Paulus Invictus]

Of course it's a hoax! The real Ark is stored in a large military warehouse in a secret Texas location on the third rack on aisle 347-46. It is on a large wooden crate marked "secret." A guy named Jones was responsible for its recovery and storage. Find Jones and you may learn the secret location.

[R. Scott]

With “Property of US Army” stenciled on the crate?

[Rightly Biased]

Yep thats the one

[safisoft]

I have read in different places that Aramaic does not have an actual word for cousin, and brother was routinely used for close relatives.

It's Greek, not Aramaic. And there is no way you can make adelphos, which literally means 'of the same womb' mean something other than its plain meaning.

Think of it this way, if the catholic dogma regarding this were true, and the early believers also held to it, don't you think they would have made SURE not to use 'of the same womb'. Answer? The same answer as to why Mary is never mentioned again after the historical accounts. Funny, Paul, Peter, James, Jude never feel a need to express catholic dogma about Mary. Hmm...

Regardless, anyone who knows the Torah knows that when Miriam [aka 'Mary'] went to the Temple in Luke 2:22ff for the purification - it was because:

1. She had bled.
2. The male child had 'opened her womb'.

In other words, she was no longer a virgin BY DEFINITION - so the whole need for catholics to go through these machinations regarding the brothers and sisters of Yeshua is moot.

When the time came for their purification according to the Torah of Moses, they took him up to Jerusalem to present him to Ad-nai (as it is written in the Torah of Ad-nai , 'Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to Ad-nai") and also to offer a sacrifice of a pair of doves or two young pigeons,as required by the Torah of Ad-nai. Luke 2:22-24

There are whole passages of Scripture regarding this. There is entire tractate in the Talmud about this and other similar issues. The so-called 'Immaculate Conception' and the dogma around it is a pagan myth.

[Darth Reagan]

Interesting. Of course, sounds more of a political ploy than an archeological find. But we'll see.

[auburntiger]

Admittedly, names like Levi, Levine and Levitz are typically Jewish but so are names like Goldberg, Lawrence and Einstein and I doubt that there was ever an Einstein tribe.

The Jewish friends that I know have no earthly idea to what tribe they belong and don't care. Perhaps they are not conservative Jews; I don't know.

No cynisism was intended on my part.

[Romish_Papist]

Bump for later read!

[Antoninus]

Here is the counter argument, courtesy of http://www.totustuus.com/virgin.htm

Mary's Perpetual Virginity
by Jim Seghers

There are four arguments against Mary's perpetual Virginity. First, "until" in Matt 1:25 seems to imply that Mary and Joseph had marital relations after the birth of Jesus. Secondly, according to both the Old and the New Testament sexual intercourse for married couples is divinely approved (Gen 1:28, 9:1, 24:60; Prov 5:18; Ps 127:3; 1 Cor 7:5, 9). Third, we are told that Jesus had brothers and sisters (Matt 12:46-47; Matt 13:55; Mark 3:31-32; 6:3; Luke 8:19-20; John 2:12; 7:3, 5, 10; Acts 1:14). Lastly, Jesus is called Mary's "firstborn" (Luke 2:7).

Argument # 1. "Until." The problem with this understanding is that it forces a modern English use of until on the Bible. In the Bible the Greek and Hebrew words for until means only that some action did not happen to a certain point. Scholars are in agreement on this point. For example, Dr. William Hendriksen, the former Professor of New Testament Literature at Calvin Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan writes: "This conclusion cannot be based merely upon the negative plus "until." That wording does not always introduce an event (in this case: she gave birth to a son) whereby the earlier situation (the couple had no sexual relations) is reversed (they now begin to have sexual relations)." From The Gospel of Matthew, p. 144.

Consider this quotation from Samuel: "And so Saul's daughter Michal was childless until the day of her death (2 Sam 6:23)." Are we to conclude that she bore children after her death? How about the raven released from the ark? We read that the raven "flew back and forth until the waters dried off from the earth (Gn 8:7)." Does that mean the raven returned? Other examples can be seen in Dt 34:6; 1 Macc 5:54 and Ps 109:1 [RSV 110:1].

Argument # 2. Sexual intercourse for married couples is divinely approved. All Christians agree that intercourse between married couples is divinely approved. However, the fact that marital intercourse is divinely approved does not mean that it is divinely commanded. Nor can it be argued that because it is approved, Joseph and Mary fulfilled that marital right.

Argument # 3. The "brothers" of the Lord. Neither Aramaic, the language Jesus probably spoke, nor Hebrew has a separate word for cousin. In reality the term, brothers, was commonly used in the Bible to describe close family members including cousins and uncles. Lot, for example was Abraham's nephew. He was the son of Abraham's brother Haran. Yet in Genesis 14:14, Lot is depicted as Abraham's brother. In Mt 29:15 Jacob is called the brother of his uncle Laban. Again in 1 Chron 23:21-22 the daughters of Eleazar married their brethren. This is not possible because Eleazar had no sons. These brethren were really their cousins, the sons of Cis. Cis was Eleazar's brother.

We learn from other Biblical passages that the word brother even had a broader use. In the case of the forty-two brethren of King Achaziah (2 Kings 10:13-14), the expression is used to refer to mere kinsman, not even close relatives. Similar uses are found in: Dt 23:7; Jer 34:9. Brother was also used to describe unrelated people, such as a friend (1 Kings 9:13, 20:32; and 2 Sam 1:26). In Amos 1:9 the word is used to describe an ally.

In the passages that refer to the brothers of the Lord, Mt 12: 46-47, Mk 3:31-32, and Lk 8:19 all seem to be relating the same incident. The use of the word brothers, as we have already seen, is not persuasive that Mary had other biological children.

Specific brothers are named in two passages. In Mt 13:55 James and Joseph and Simon and Judas are listed. James and Joseph are identified in Mt 27:56 as the son of another Mary, probably Mary of Clophas found in Jn 19:25. Simon appears to be Simon the Cananean of Mt 10:4. Judas is called the son of James in Lk 6:16 and Acts 1:13.

The second listing of brothers occurs in Mk 6:3. They are James and Joses and Judas and Simon. James and Joses are identified in Mt 15:40 as the sons of another Mary. This is probably the same Mary discussed above who appears in Jn 19:25. Judas and Simon appear in Matthew's list (Mt 13:55).

Argument # 4. Firstborn son. This objection ignores the ancient Jewish idiomatic use of the word firstborn. This term clearly refers to the first child who opens the womb (See: Ex 13:2 and Nb 3:12). The Mosaic law commanded that the firstborn son be sanctified (Ex 34-20). Are we to suppose that parents had to wait until a second son was born before they could call their first son the firstborn, and only then were obligated to carry out the Mosaic provision? This was clearly not the case.

Conclusion: There is no Biblical evidence that indicates Mary had any other children after the birth of Jesus. However, the above discussion does not present a Biblical case for Mary's perpetual virginity. What is that Biblical basis?

Biblical Basis for Mary's Perpetual Virginity.

Position # 1. At the Annunciation Mary question, "How can this be" (Lk 1:34) makes no sense except in the concept of a vow of lifelong virginity. This is the understanding from the earliest interpretations of this passage. Mary and Joseph were betrothed, that is, legally married at the time of the Annunciation. It's hardly sensible to suppose that Mary's question was an inquiry regarding the biological process of how children were conceived.

Position # 2. A second Biblical argument that supports the traditional Christian belief in Mary's perpetual centers around the account of Jesus being found in the temple at age twelve (Lk 2:41-51). There is no hint of other children.

Position # 3. In the passages that refer to Jesus' brothers, the sacred authors are careful to only call Jesus the son of Mary, no one else. Additionally, in referring to Jesus as "the son of Mary" (Mk 6:3), the force of the Greek implies that Jesus was Mary's only son, not a son.

Position # 4. In the Jewish society in which Jesus lived, younger sons never gave public advice to an older brother, much less, the oldest son. This would be very disrespectful. Yet, we find Jesus' brethren advising Jesus to leave Galilee and go to Judea to make a name for himself (Jn 7:3-4). Similarly, at another time his brethren attempted to restrain him saying: "He is out of his mind (Mk 3:21)." These passages are understandable if these brethren were in fact Jesus' uncles.

Position # 5. Lastly, Jesus' action at the foot of the cross, when he entrusted his mother to John, makes no sense if Mary had other sons (Jn 19:26-27). The social customs of the time would have made such an action unthinkable.

Patrology

(All references are to: The Faith of the Early Fathers, edited and translated by W. A. Jurgens (The Liturgical Press, Collegeville: Minn, c. 1979), III Vols.

St. Athanasius (358-362) in his Discourse Against the Arians called the Mother of Jesus, "the ever-virgin Mary" #767a, I, p. 330.

Didymus the Blind (381-392 - He was head of the catechetical school at Alexandria) "for neither did Mary. . . marry anyone, nor did she ever become the mother of anyone else, but even after childbirth she remained always and forever an immaculate virgin." #1073, II, p. 62.

St. Epiphanius of Salamis (374) "the holy ever-virgin Mary" and "to Holy Mary is invariably added, for that Holy Woman remains undefiled." #1111, II, p.76.

St. Jerome (383) wrote a whole treatise called: Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary, II, pp. 190-192.

St. Augustine (391-430) "a virgin conceiving, a virgin bearing, a virgin pregnant, a virgin bringing forth, a virgin perpetual." #1518, III, p.30; also: #1642, III, p. 71; #1974d, p. 166.

Leoporius (426) "the ever-virgin Mary" Document of Amendment, #2048, III, p. 197.

St. Cyril of Alexandria (542) "Therefore he kept His Mother a Virgin even after her childbearing." #2133, III, p. 232.

St. Peter Chrysologus (405-450) "and a virgin she remained." # 2177, III, p. 267.

Leo I (c. 461) "a Virgin conceived, a Virgin bore, and Virgin she remained" III, p. 275, #2194.

Gregory of Tours (575-593) "A virgin both before and after she bore Him" III, p. 306 # 2288 b.

Sophronius of Jerusalem c. 638 "the immaculate virginity which was unblemished before the birth, during the birth, and after the birth" III, p. 307 #2289.

John Damascene c. 743 "The Ever-Virgin remains after birth a Virgin still." III, p. 340 #2372.

The Reformers

LUTHER wrote on February 2, 1546 that Mary was "a virgin before the conception and birth, she remained a virgin also at the birth and after it."

ZWINGLI wrote in January of 1528: "I speak of this in the holy Church of Zurich and in all my writings: I recognize Mary as ever virgin and holy."

CALVIN in his Commentary on Matthew called those who interpret the gospel (Mt 1:25) to imply that Mary had other children as "pig-headed and stupid." Later, commenting on Mt 13:55, he wrote: "we have already said in another place that according to the custom of the Hebrews all relatives were called "brethren."

[wagglebee]

I stand corrected. Nowhere in the Bible does it say the Jude and James had the same parents; although Jude refers to himself as James' brother and several other verses in Scripture identified him as such.

So, I will focus on the parentage of James.

1. Mark 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;
This is at the Crucifixion. Mary the mother of Jesus was not "afar off" as we know from John; additionally, if she was the mother of Jesus, why not just refer to her as this, obviously, this is the "other" Mary from the Gospels.

2. Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
John 19:25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
This clearly establishes that there is a third or "other" Mary, the wife of Cleophas, and the mother of James among others. She is probably the Virgin Mary's sister in law or close relative.

Additionally, the second chapter of Matthew clearly indicate that Mary, Jesus and Joseph go into Egypt and only the three of them come out. In Luke 2, speaks of the Holy Family of three going to the temple in Jerusalem with no other children.

In middle east culture, it is unheard of for a younger sibling to rebuke an older sibling and certainly not the oldest. As James, could have been no more than a teenager if he had been born after the journey to the temple, it again makes sense that these "brothers" were older relatives. In Genesis 13:8 and 14:16, Lot is called the "brother" of Abram, yet 11:27 indicates that Lot was Abram's nephew.

Why did the writers of Scripture not make this clearer? Simple, they didn't see the need. This was accepted fact and only centuries later did anyone ever question Mary's Perpetual Virginity. They never foresaw the occasion when this would be questioned. And in fact it wasn't until very recently. ALL of great Protestant Reformers accepted this (I have already posted links to this, so any further ones would be pointless).

Invariably the question then turns to, "why wasn't this spelled out better in scripture?" "God should have foreseen the questions and inspired the authors to spell it out better." To which I offer this for your consideration:
Nowhere in scripture is the Trinity explicitly defined, and probably no tenet of faith is more difficult to comprehend than the Trinity. Wars have been fought, people have died over this controversy, yet the Bible is silent.

[BeHoldAPaleHorse]

I looked under my bed and behind the couch, no Ark there.

[soundandvision]

Geraldo in front of Al Capone's vault PING!

[johnb838]

And Geraldo will be there!

[safisoft]

The Faith of the Early Fathers

I wouldn't care a wit about any of the opinion of the people you have listed. They are not my 'fathers'.

None of these arguments are anything other than a sideshow. If the DOGMA (if your read Greek, you will discover that it is a BAD word in Scripture) that demands we swallow certain things about 'Mary' is so important, it seems quite lacking in Scripture - and the Scriptural evidence is far more conclusive considering adelphos means 'of the same womb'

This is a thread on the Ark of the Covenant. Sometimes it is very tiring that FreeRepublic reads a lot like PapistOnline sometimes.

[safisoft]

Nowhere in scripture is the Trinity explicitly defined

No, quite the opposite from Deut 6:4: Sh'ma Yisra'el, HaShem Elokeinu, HaShem echad.

Anytime someone prefaces an explanation of a Scriptural position with, "this will be complicated" you can know one of two things:

1. They don't know what they are talking about, but think they do.
- or -
2. It was devised by committe (or in this case a 'church council')

The attempts at creating a doctrine (sic, dogma) regarding the ontology of the Creator of the Universe, will always be in error. Better to leave what is unknown, and in this matter also unsaid, instead of creating unScriptural dogma to answer questions posed by the puny human intellect.

[DouglasKC]

All that writing, and you didn't even address the fact that Jesus tells us HE is the New Covenant in Matthew, Luke and Mark.

(double sigh) :-)

At the risk of being called picky, no Jesus doesn't say he is the new covenant. He says that his blood is blood of the covenant. His shed blood is the ratification of the new covenant for all that believe. Yes, belief in Christ is instrumental to the new covenant, but he is not the new covenant. Again, scripture tells what the new covenant is:

Jer 31:33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

The new covenant is this: God says he will write his laws in our hearts and minds. It is ratified, accepted by us, by accepting the shed blood of Christ.