Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Henry V’s Payroll Cuts Agincourt Myth Down to Size (French/English ratio wildly exaggerated)
The Sunday Times ^ | May 29, 2005 | Richard Brooks

Posted on 05/28/2005 5:51:42 PM PDT by quidnunc

The scale of Henry V’s triumph at Agincourt, which has been feted as one of the greatest victories in British military history, has been exaggerated for almost six centuries, a new book is to reveal.

The English and Welsh were still outnumbered, according to Anne Curry, professor of medieval history at Southampton University — but only by a factor of three to two. For the last 50 years historians have believed the odds were at least four to one.

Curry is the first academic to untangle the true scale of Henry’s victory in 1415 by sifting through original enrolment records at the National Archives in London and the French Bibliothèque Nationale.

“The figures have been exaggerated over the centuries for patriotic reasons,” said Curry, whose book Agincourt: A New History will be published next month. “It was a myth constructed around Henry to build up his reputation as a king.”

Curry discovered there were more English and Welsh troops than previously thought, and far fewer on the French side. She was able to count the number of soldiers on both sides accurately because all were paid recruits. Their names and wages were recorded. She calculates that total numbers were about 8,000 on Henry’s side and 12,000 on the French.

-snip-

(Excerpt) Read more at timesonline.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Editorial; Miscellaneous; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: agincourt; battleofagincourt; bookreview; charlesthemad; england; france; godsgravesglyphs; henryv; hundredyearswar; longbow; longbowmen; middleages; renaissance; revisionism; uk; worldhistory
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-63 next last
To: Citizen Tom Paine
Citizen Tom Paine wrote: As I recall, this battle pitted French knights against stout Englishmen armed with longbows. The French knights continued to charge against them all day and were basically picked off by the archers. At nightfall the French quit. Here is my question: Were the French knights paid recruits? This doesn't fit in with what a knight was.

On either the History or Discovery Channel I saw an analysis of Agincourt which included an examination of the actual battlefield.

The intial charge of the French knights started on a broad front but was funnelled down into a narrow one by topography.

The cast iron arrowheads of the English bowmen couldn't penetrate the French knights' armor, but it could and did bring down their horses or cause them to become unmaageable.

When the first rank of knights went down those behind just kept piling into the tangle.

The ground was wet and the soil at Agencourt formed a clinging, sticky mud which made walking difficult, particularly for those wearing armor.

21 posted on 05/28/2005 6:20:27 PM PDT by quidnunc (Omnis Gaul delenda est)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: quidnunc
Battlefield Detectives - Agincourt
22 posted on 05/28/2005 6:21:09 PM PDT by the_daug
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: longshadow
Regardless of their actual numbers, Henry may have seen very few French. The frog-eaters were probably doubled-up, one behind the other, with two men in a single pair of pants.
23 posted on 05/28/2005 6:22:26 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas. The List-O-Links is at my homepage.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: dufekin; tet68
No, but they now lost less pitifully but just as badly.

Two ways of looking at "crushing defeat". Vastly outnumbered side wins. Losing side takes dispororinate casulaities.

Like that early 19th centuary naval battle whose name must not be mentioned. The EU side had 33 ships to 27 British. but they lost 22 ships to zero.

24 posted on 05/28/2005 6:27:09 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: tet68
Does this mean the French won?

Well, to be fair, the French wage war mainly for the clever quotes:

"Nous somme dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serrons emmerdes." - Marshal McMahon at the battle of Sedan

25 posted on 05/28/2005 6:28:14 PM PDT by Grut
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Cowboy Bob
What did historians believe were the the odds between 1451 and 1955?

Well, Shakespeare, for one, cites numbers of approx. 50 to 1, if I recall correctly. That's obviously nonsense.

26 posted on 05/28/2005 6:30:45 PM PDT by Alter Kaker (Whatever tears one may shed, in the end one always blows one’s nose.-Heine)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: quidnunc
History or Discovery Channel I saw an analysis of Agincourt which included an examination of the actual battlefield

History Channel. It was excellent. I'm not sure if it was the "Battlefield Detectives" series or not.

Especially interesting element was the modern crowd-analysis computer modeling of the traffic flow, as it were, on the battlefield.

27 posted on 05/28/2005 6:33:23 PM PDT by GVnana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: the_daug

Ooops. Missed your post. Thanks for the link.


28 posted on 05/28/2005 6:34:25 PM PDT by GVnana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: quidnunc
Keegan's "The Face of Battle", has a very through and
interesting analysis of Agincourt.
29 posted on 05/28/2005 6:37:29 PM PDT by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: quidnunc

It still is an astounding victory, because the English were 4/5 footsoldiers, and most of their knights were dismounted. They relied heavily on archers. The French were overwhelmingly knights and were slaughtered in the mud. No matter how many French died, it marked the end of knight-based cavalry in Europe.


30 posted on 05/28/2005 6:37:32 PM PDT by LS (CNN is the Amtrak of news)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: GVgirl

Read John Keegan's "The face of Battle". It give a very readable in-depth analysis of Agincourt as well as several other famous battles including waterloo and The Somme. outstanding book, required reading when I went to Norwich University.


31 posted on 05/28/2005 6:38:54 PM PDT by strider44
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Vigilanteman

Believe it or not, the kids in my apartment building in Kyiv thought that this was how you spelled that well-known insult.

32 posted on 05/28/2005 6:41:23 PM PDT by struwwelpeter
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: LS

The English Archers were postioned in front, each was
required to bring a sharpened wood stake several inches
in diameter and 8 or 9 feet longwhich were planted in the ground at an angle,with the Archers shooting from between them.
AS the French knights charged, the archers who could loose many more arrows than the french Genoise crossbowmen, retired behind the stakes at the last and the French horses were impaled on the stakes allowing the English men at arms to go to work on the downed knights.


33 posted on 05/28/2005 6:43:00 PM PDT by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: strider44

Thanks. It's going on my booklist.


34 posted on 05/28/2005 6:43:15 PM PDT by GVnana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: tet68

Yep. And the first wave, which tried to retreat, ran headlong into the second charging wave.


35 posted on 05/28/2005 6:52:19 PM PDT by LS (CNN is the Amtrak of news)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Jagman

And to think that some attribute these beautiful passages to an illiterate man from Avon - poor Oxford.


36 posted on 05/28/2005 7:00:25 PM PDT by lemura
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: tet68

More like they continue to attempt to establish a French version of victory in which surrendering is the same thing as winning.


37 posted on 05/28/2005 7:01:40 PM PDT by LibertarianInExile (<-- sick of faux-conservatives who want federal government intervention for 'conservative things.')
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: martin_fierro

I loved the pic!


38 posted on 05/28/2005 7:04:54 PM PDT by SIDENET ("Some people are desperate for whatever they're desperate for," - Bubba Fink)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: GVgirl
This is the first clash, once the french knights were down the English men at arms were able to move in and with "war hammers", axes, and short swords able to pierce the joints of the knights armor finish them off or take them captive.


39 posted on 05/28/2005 7:22:16 PM PDT by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: tet68

One cannot but admire the French taste in colorful armor.


40 posted on 05/28/2005 7:23:42 PM PDT by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-63 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson