Librarian's brush with FBI shapes her view of the USA Patriot Act

USAToday ^ | Wed May 18, 6:25 AM ET | By Joan Airoldi

[Redcitizen]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20050518/cm_usatoday/librariansbrushwithfbishapesherviewoftheusapatriotact

Gannett allows headline and URL only.

[Steve_Seattle]

"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."

So all crime is imaginary? Hitler was imaginary? Pearl Harbor was imaginary? 9/11 was imaginary?

[Celtjew Libertarian]

What if it was the Parks Dept. lending out chainsaws to the town's citizens. Could I get the log of people who signed out chainsaws?

Probably not.

There are a lot of government records on individuals that are not available to the public. Individual students' school records come to mind.

Public records on individuals should be accessible only by exception, not by general rule.

[joey'smom]

I'm a librarian and I'll have you know it does too take a master's degree to sign people up to use the internet. :) And what about clearing paper jams in the printer? Highly technical stuff. And don't forget the plugged up toilets --somebody's got to push the plunger. Seriously, I agree with you 100%.

[Celtjew Libertarian]

I've always had a bit of a problem seeing them as a professional class. Oh, I suppose you need to have a general knowledge of literature and what books are being published and what books are worth buying and what aren't, but as far as technical knowledge is concerned, practically zip. I think that's part of the reason librarians talk so tough these days - they have an inferiority complex.

Tasks from my days, 15 years ago as a medical/science librarian:

Training pharmacy students on the use of drug databases.
Performing a variety of searches on a variety of databases and/or training students and faculty to do the same
Use of and training in print indexes of various technical and scientific literature -- most of them are now computerized these days.
Tracking down libraries that had obscure 19th century scientific journals, for interlibrary loan.

I never did any of the wide-ranging surveys and bibliography building in various technical areas, but there were librarians who did.

Medical librarians have been in the forefront of computerizing databases of scientific literature and research.

Now that was an academic librarianship -- Public libraries may not have quite as many technology intensive tasks.

[VeniVidiVici]

Public records on individuals should be accessible only by exception, not by general rule.

How about if the library did a background check on the individual checking out a book? If the individual has no warrants, no felonies and is not mentally incapacitated, then the book can be lent out and the record of check-out destroyed when the book is returned.

[Celtjew Libertarian]

How about if the library did a background check on the individual checking out a book? If the individual has no warrants, no felonies and is not mentally incapacitated, then the book can be lent out and the record of check-out destroyed when the book is returned.

We could do the same for book stores as well.

Hey! Here's an idea. Shoe stores. We could check if sneaker buyers have feloney records. After all, they may be using the sneaks to make a faster getaway.

We could keep records of the gyms and local GMCs to see if criminals are working on building up their body mass.

We can check out bridal shops for bigamists, while we're at it.

In other words, not just now, but HELL, NO!

[Redcitizen]

Wait a minute. That sounds like that whole business of McCarthy back in the 50's. We are slowly acclimating by degrees into a people that are dependent upon the government for permission to live.

[rattrap]

A question for the libertarians in here: If the FBI got a call from a flight instructor who said a Middle-Eastern man paid $2,000 cash for flight lessons, would that justify a subpoena of the customer's financial records? Would it justify a wiretap? Would it justify any governmental action whatsoever?

From the amount of information you've given I'd say no. Seems some people I hold in high esteem would agree with me.

The 4th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

If he paid cash for the lessons then acted suspiciously (i.e. not wanting to learn how to land) then yes I'd say a background check is in order, especially if the person is not a citizen of the USA, but just because someone of middle-eastern decent pays cash for something that people in this country do everyday is not a cause to raise the alarm.
Someone paraphrased Ben Franklin's “Those that would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither liberty nor security.” in an earlier post and I fully agree with his sentiments.

[Stu Cohen]

I hope this self-righteous, sanctimonius freak show of a librarian feels better about herself when some towelhead blows up the space needle. Can there be any clearer evidence that liberals are anti-American?

Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel.

Seriously, though. I think the library is right, personally. If we are worried about terrorism, cut off immigration.

I'd rather they not erode our privacy.

[rattrap]

Za Rodina, Za Bush comrade

[Stu Cohen]

No good deed goes unpunished, I am sure that OB muslime terrorist fanatics will bear this in mind and spare your sorry arses.

For some reason, don't ask me why ... but I just get the feeling that these "OB muslime fantatic" folks don't spend alot of time hanging out in public libraries borrowing books that they know will draw attention.

[Celtjew Libertarian]

A question for the libertarians in here: If the FBI got a call from a flight instructor who said a Middle-Eastern man paid $2,000 cash for flight lessons, would that justify a subpoena of the customer's financial records? Would it justify a wiretap? Would it justify any governmental action whatsoever?

No.

And it's a very sad state of affairs that paying cash is seen as a suspicious act, as if we are now all expected to keep a record of our purchases available for the government to peruse at its leisure.

[notigar]

The FBI withdrew its request. SO what was there to respond to?

[ActionNewsBill]

What can you say, though -- some people like to be ruled with an authoritarian fist, in the name of faux security.

Yep, and it's disappointing to say the least, that so many FReepers are willing to give up their freedoms.If this Patriot Act legislation had been passed during the Clinton administration, there would be howls of outrage, but since we are "at war" and Bush is President, these same "conservatives" are willing to give fed.gov unlimited powers.

Sad, it didn't use to be like that here.

[MWS]

The part that I find disturbing is that many of the people on this thread bashing the librarian for not turning over the records would, most likely, have been up in arms if the Clinton Administration tried this sort of activity in the wake of the Oklahoma bombing, subpoenaing the records for "right-wing" reading materials. Such an attitude would have been with good reason - it would have been a violation of freedom.

We don't do ourselves any favors as a nation by giving up the freedoms that make our country great for the sake of "safety", regardless of the political orientation of those running the presidental administration at the time.

[Steve_Seattle]

Well, doing a background check on this hypothetical guy wouldn't infringe on his "liberty" - he would be going about his business as usual.

[Steve_Seattle]

What "freedoms" have we given up as a result of the Patriot Act? What can't you do now that you could do on Sept. 10, 2001?

[Celtjew Libertarian]

What "freedoms" have we given up as a result of the Patriot Act? What can't you do now that you could do on Sept. 10, 2001?

Buy a book without worrying that the FBI might go to a secret court to find out what books I'm buying.

[Steve_Seattle]

"And it's a very sad state of affairs that paying cash is seen as a suspicious act,"

But the fact is that it IS suspicious to pay for large purchases in cash. I had a guy doing work on my house - about $10,000 worth - and he wanted to be paid only in cash. Do any of you libertarians think he had any intent other than fraudulently avoiding income tax? It is not easy, necessary, or safe to carry around large sums of cash to conduct routine business transactions, and to do so should arouse suspicion.

[Celtjew Libertarian]

But the fact is that it IS suspicious to pay for large purchases in cash. I had a guy doing work on my house - about $10,000 worth - and he wanted to be paid only in cash. Do any of you libertarians think he had any intent other than fraudulently avoiding income tax?

Which says more about the failures of income tax than anything else. You're right that it may be suspicious to pay cash, but like I said, it's a sad state of affairs that has brought us to the point that it is suspicious.