[Pelayo]

Well Humanism itself goes back to the Renaissance. And, even in it's earliest forms there was a prevailing tendency towards secularism. Modernity is realy just the resurrection of paganism with Christian liberalism twisted into an amoral concept.

So if you really stretch it like I'm doing, you can argue that modernistic-progressive-amoral-liberals are actually conservative pagans ; ) .

[Qwinn]

Not sure I agree with that - "secularism" born in the Renaissance, that is, at least as "secularism" manifests itself today. I see the birth of the modern Left specifically in the blood of the French Revolution, not in the Renaissance. There's nothing incompatible with Christianity and a -passive- secular approach to government - indeed, Christianity basically invented it. It's the French Revolution that gave birth to radical, aggressive secular humanism.

The difference is distinct and easily demarcated. The Renaissance gave birth to the idea that government should maintain an agnostic attitude toward religion. The French Revolution gave birth to the idea of an atheist state actively hostile to religion. Big difference.

Qwinn