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2nd Circuit Upholds New York Handgun Limits (2nd Amendment only covers federal laws - Judge Wesley)
New York Law Journal ^ | 5-10-2005 | Mark Hamblett

Posted on 05/10/2005 10:20:58 PM PDT by Dan from Michigan

2nd Circuit Upholds New York Handgun Limits
Tuesday May 10, 2:59 am ET
Mark Hamblett, New York Law Journal

New York state's handgun licensing scheme does not violate the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals has ruled. Upholding the dismissal of a suit brought by an out-of-state resident barred from being allowed to carry a handgun under the licensing scheme, the circuit also found in Bach v. Pataki, 03-9123, that the Privileges and Immunities Clause of Article IV "cannot preclude New York's residency requirement in light of the State's substantial interest in monitoring handgun licenses."

Judge Richard Wesley wrote the opinion for the unanimous three-judge panel.

The suit was brought by David D. Bach, a Virginia resident who is licensed in that state to carry his Ruger P-85 9mm pistol. Bach wanted to bring the weapon with him during regular visits to his parents in upstate New York.

Bach works as a lawyer with the Navy's Office of the General Counsel. He also holds a Department of Defense top security clearance, is a commissioned officer in the U.S. Naval Reserve and is a veteran Navy SEAL.

He claimed that he wanted to carry the weapon because during the trips to see his parents, he and his family travel through areas with extremely high crime rates. Bach reported reading about "unarmed law-abiding citizens being slain by sadistic predators despite the exceptional efforts of law enforcement."

After being informed by the New York State Police that he would not be eligible for an exemption from the rule that out-of-state residents cannot obtain permits to carry handguns, Bach filed suit in the Northern District.

But his claims that the bar on nonresident permits violated the Second Amendment's "right to keep and bear arms" and the Privileges and Immunities Clause were dismissed by Northern District Judge Norman A. Mordue.

Mordue held that Bach could not allege a constitutional right to bear arms because the "Second Amendment is not a source of individual rights." And the Privileges and Immunities Clause was not violated by the permit rule, he said, because "the factor of residence has a substantial and legitimate connection with the purposes of the permit scheme such that the disparate treatment of nonresidents is justifiable."

The 2nd Circuit panel said that New York regulates handguns primarily through Article 265 of the Penal Law, which creates a general ban on handgun possession, and Article 400 which carves out an exemption for licensed use of handguns.

Judge Wesley noted that Bach had asked the 2nd Circuit to declare the right to keep and bear arms to be an individual, rather than a collective right. In doing so, he invoked dicta in a 2001 5th Circuit case (U.S. v. Emerson, 270 F.3d 203) and a U.S. Department of Justice Office of Legal Counsel opinion.

STATE'S ARGUMENT

New York state countered by arguing that the Second Amendment is only a guarantee to the states of "the collective right to fortify their respective 'well regulated' militias."

"Although the sweep of the Second Amendment has become the focus of a national legal dialogue, we see no need to enter into that debate," Wesley said. "Instead, we hold that the Second Amendment's 'right to keep and bear arms' imposes on only federal, not state, legislative efforts." (Dan: What about the 14th amendment)

In so holding, Wesley said the 2nd Circuit was joining five other circuits, and it was following the lead of the U.S. Supreme Court in Presser v. Illinois, 16 U.S. 2252 (1886), which he said "stands for the proposition that the right of the people to keep and bear arms, whatever else its nature, is a right only against the federal government, not against the states."

As to Bach's argument that the handgun law discriminates against nonresidents with regard to a protected privilege under the Privileges and Immunities Clause, Wesley said the court was rejecting that challenge because "New York's interest in monitoring gun licenses is substantial and New York's restriction of licenses to residents and persons working primarily within the State is sufficiently related to this interested."

That monitoring interest, he said, is "in essence, an interest in continually obtaining relevant behavioral information" -- licensing officers having the power to revoke licenses for "poor judgment" based, in part, on local incidents.

Wesley said that the rationale for monitoring is "distinct from rationales rejected in other Privileges and Immunities Clause cases."

"Most importantly, the monitoring rationale is not an interest of merely 'general concern,' to which a resident/nonresident distinction would not be tailored, but, rather, actually turns on where a person spends his or her time," he said, and the fact that there is an exception to the rule for nonresidents working in-state "is consistent with this criterion."

Judges Jon Newman and Joseph McLaughlin joined in the opinion.

Kevin J. Miller and David C. Frederick of Kellogg, Huber, Hansen, Todd & Evans in Washington, D.C., represented Bach, who was of counsel for the case.

Assistant Solicitor General Frank Brady, Deputy Solicitor General Daniel Smirlock, Senior Assistant Solicitor General Nancy A. Spiegel and Attorney General Eliot Spitzer represented the state.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; US: New York
KEYWORDS: 2ndcircuit; bang; banglist; elliotspitzer; gungrabbers; guns; judges; ruling; spitzer; statesrights
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To: Dan from Michigan

Well, this certainly looks like a juicy USSC challenge.


81 posted on 05/11/2005 7:48:09 PM PDT by shellshocked (They're undocumented Border Patrol agents, not vigilantes.)
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To: dmanLA

"History and fact doesn't matter to most in government anymore."

True, and a good thing the founders put the 2nd in to ensure that can be changed when necessary.


82 posted on 05/11/2005 7:49:55 PM PDT by shellshocked (They're undocumented Border Patrol agents, not vigilantes.)
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To: PzGr43

>>This will mean the waverers will turn ....<<

Never waive your rights when you should be waving the Flag!


83 posted on 05/11/2005 7:55:50 PM PDT by B4Ranch ( Report every illegal alien that you meet. Call 866-347-2423, it's a FREE CALL)
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To: Dan from Michigan; All

Join the NRA while we can still vote through the ballot box instead of the ammo box.

And if you are already a member, please put the initials in your tagline. Thank you.


84 posted on 05/11/2005 8:05:23 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (Vote a Straight Republican Ballot. Rid the country of dems. NRA)
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To: Shooter 2.5

About 1/2 through my life membership dues. (Easy pay life)


85 posted on 05/11/2005 8:06:36 PM PDT by Dan from Michigan ("My guvnor don't got the answer")
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To: Robert_Paulson2
Perhaps all our enumerated rights, are really just for the good of the collective... including speech.

Well, even the enumerated rights don't really mean "what the words say."

After all, the SCOTUS ruled that "Congress shall make no law" doesn't really mean that "Congress shall make no law."

Mark

86 posted on 05/11/2005 8:10:08 PM PDT by MarkL (I've got a fever, and the only prescription is MORE COWBELL!!!)
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To: SittinYonder
Funny, I thought our country was founded on the idea that individual rights come from God and that government exists only to protect those rights, not to infringe on them. I've got their individual rights ...

Where have you been? We all know that rights are bestowed upon us by our government, which we all serve! That way, government can do what it will, whenever it suits our masters!

What government gives, government can take away.

Mark

87 posted on 05/11/2005 8:11:56 PM PDT by MarkL (I've got a fever, and the only prescription is MORE COWBELL!!!)
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To: Dan from Michigan

Great but did you notice how few of the Freepers on the banglist aren't members? I can understand Freepers on other threads but if someone is going to an "expert" at something, wouldn't you think they would support it so they could continue?

It's laughable where they complain they have to throw the mailings away while others are writing the checks.


88 posted on 05/11/2005 8:14:28 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (Vote a Straight Republican Ballot. Rid the country of dems. NRA)
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To: sourcery

bttt


89 posted on 05/11/2005 8:16:56 PM PDT by I got the rope
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To: Shooter 2.5
I'm just waiting for the "NRA caves" posts.......
90 posted on 05/11/2005 8:18:38 PM PDT by Dan from Michigan ("My guvnor don't got the answer")
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To: Beelzebubba
Agreed, except that a semi-auto battle rifle is much more useful that a sniper rifle. An army of snipers (and we all fancy ourselves such) is no more useful than a team of quarterbacks.

Against whom? If you are suggesting a toe to toe running gun battle by a few patriots against government forces...I think that's suicidal. They will use the "big gun," the radio, to call in helicopters and any other supporting arms as required. Look at the current battle in western Iraq between very well armed Islamic fighters and the USMC as an example.

The bolt action rifle which maximizes range and is used for ONE SHOT at least gives a patriot a chance to escape the soon-arriving Quick Reaction Force.

91 posted on 05/11/2005 8:19:23 PM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: glock rocks

Oleg Volk is a national treasure!
The NRA should give him their highest award for his RKBA artwork.


92 posted on 05/11/2005 8:22:57 PM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Blood of Tyrants

1/3 on the computer and 2/3 still in my brain.
Sigh.


93 posted on 05/11/2005 8:23:47 PM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub; patton
Thanks for the ping, Tonk.

This is an extremely interesting and important case, for IMHO, (no I'm not a lawyer, but I'm a client of one, and mrsgwmore works in the justice system ;-) this case could be the one "biggie" that makes it to SCOTUS.

We RKBA activists have been waiting a long time for a test case that the Supremes would touch, and this looks like it might be a good one. The only problem I see, at this point, is the appeal after appeal before it actually gets there (Similar to Terri Schiavo) with the outcome already preordained by the tame Judgenfuherer. Both NY and NJ are totally controlled by liberal gun grabbers, who would like nothing better than to confiscate all one's firearms, and a wrong move at this point, with a wrong decision could be disastrous.

That being said, we are back to the stinking "State's Rights BS all over again, and what trumps what. IMHO, I believe, (and what patriot and conservative doesn't) that the 2A, is totally unambiguous in it's wording, and all the BS concerning commas, "well-regulated" etc/. os simply verbiage of the time in which the amendment was first written, and still holds true today.

There has been plenty of precedent in case law for striking down nuisance lawsuits against firaarm manufacturers for injuries inflicted by criminal use of their lawfully manufactured, highly regulated product. I see no difference here, The only change is that the suit was in the Peoples Demokratik Republik of New York, with it's Politikal Kommisars Xlintoon and Schumer, we all KNOW where they stand.

Patton, allow me to join in, like you, I also am the holder of a "Far More Than TS". and although now retired, disabled, still want to join in this scrap. Let me know what I can do to help out, I'.m here 24/7...

Since I reside "somewhere in a red zone deep in a secret location in the blue state of PA, at least I still have some rights here, but those could be gone at a moment's notice. We can't ever cease our vigilance, for even one microsecond.

Again, thanks much for the pings, this was an extremely important post, and worth reading and book-marking.

Keep the Faith for Freedom!!

Greg

94 posted on 05/11/2005 8:29:13 PM PDT by gwmoore (As the manual for the Russian Nagant revolver states: "Target Practice:'At the Deserter, FIRE' '')
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To: PzGr43
Hi All-

Excellent and cogent analysis by PzGr43 above. That is just how the statists will try to do it.

B-U-M-P!

~ Blue Jays ~

95 posted on 05/11/2005 8:32:27 PM PDT by Blue Jays (Rock Hard, Ride Free)
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To: gwmoore

If dan, tonk or you know who is representing him - I have some cash hidden away for a rainy day...


96 posted on 05/11/2005 8:32:50 PM PDT by patton ("Fool," said my Muse to me, "look in thy heart, and write.")
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub

NY! what a load if malarky!
This is the same state that confiscated weapons from law abiding citizens.
They essentially said turn them in or move out of state!

Freakin tyrants. What part of "shall not be infringed" dont they understand?


97 posted on 05/11/2005 8:49:48 PM PDT by mylife (The roar of the masses could be farts)
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To: Travis McGee
Volk's work is from the heart and soul. I usually try to make his awesome pictures a link to his Self-Defense: A Basic Human Right website. I goofed... so here's another, which is a link...

molon labe

98 posted on 05/11/2005 8:51:52 PM PDT by glock rocks (For the love of all that's good and decent, don't try this at home)
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To: Smartass

Thanks for the ping!


99 posted on 05/11/2005 9:11:59 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: de Buillion

Then I think you're more than covered.

LOL...


100 posted on 05/11/2005 9:19:06 PM PDT by Dr.Zoidberg (This tagline brought to you by Islam. Islam, only the best of the 12th century for you and yours.)
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