Posted on 05/09/2005 9:18:36 PM PDT by seastay
NEW YORK -- The rapid spread of vicious street gangs such as MS-13 is causing alarm in cities and suburbs nationwide, igniting bitter debate about how best to combat the threat and inspiring a comprehensive anti-gang bill in Congress.
The measure is depicted by supporters as the only effective way to counterattack gang violence, and assailed by critics as an overreaction that could clog both federal courts and adult prisons with youthful offenders, most of them minorities.
Sponsored by Rep. Randy Forbes, R-Va., the bill moved swiftly through the House Judiciary Committee last month and is scheduled for a House floor vote Wednesday. It would turn many gang-related violent offenses into federal crimes punishable by mandatory sentences of at least 10 years, expand the range of crimes punishable by death, and enable U.S. prosecutors to try 16- and 17-year-old gang members as adults in federal courts. "These aren't petty hoodlums," Forbes said. "They're cutting people's heads off, doing countersurveillance on police. ... They're trained in a type of violence we've not seen heretofore."
In Virginia recently, gang victims have been hacked by machetes and had fingers cut off. Affiliated gangs in Central America are suspected in several recent beheadings of young women.
The bill's supporters include the National Sheriffs' Association and the Fraternal Order of Police, the nation's largest law enforcement union. If approved, it would move to the Senate where Sens. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) and Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) have introduced a bill combining tough anti-gang measures with new funding for crime prevention programs.
Opponents include numerous high-powered civil rights groups - the NAACP, the American Civil Liberties Union, Human Rights Watch and others. They cite FBI findings that serious youth crime is declining, say states - not the federal government - can best address the gang problem and worry about long-term consequences for teenage offenders sent to adult prisons.
"We too want to do something about gang violence," said Angela Arboleda of the National Council of La Raza, a Hispanic civil rights organization. "But punitive measures that lock up youths with adults is not a smart approach."
Arboleda says that Forbes' measure - which the congressman has nicknamed "The Gangbusters Bill" - "is one of the worst bills we've ever seen."
According to Forbes, street gang membership in the United States has grown steadily to more than 750,000, outnumbering police officers. He said a federal approach is needed because gangs like MS-13 - the Central American-influenced Mara Salvatrucha - have spread to many states.
"They're organized; they have a board of directors inside prison and outside prison," Forbes said. "Even while in prison, they recruit _ teens, even down to elementary school."
Critics of the bill say state and local police agencies could escalate the fight against such gangs under existing laws. They also say the Bush administration and Congress have cut back social programs that could deter youths from joining gangs in the first place.
"Because there are alarming stories about gang violence, members of Congress are under pressure from constituents to offer solutions," said Morna Murray of the Children's Defense Fund. "The fear makes it hard to focus on crime prevention. 'Tough on crime' sells, but it doesn't work."
The bill's opponents include some conservatives who question the concept of federalizing law enforcement tasks traditionally handled by states.
"It's better that it stays state law _ that's the true conservative position," said Rep. Robert Inglis, R-S.C., the only Republican opposing the bill when the Judiciary Committee approved it on an otherwise party-line vote.
Forbes said of Inglis, "He's a nice guy - but he's dead wrong."
"In the past, these gangs were in just one area - now they have networks across the country," Forbes said. "We want to create enforcement teams that will do six- or seven-month investigations, and then have trials that will bring whole networks down. States can't do that."
Federal statutes already target Mafia-style organizations. Forbes said his bill is needed because some judges and juries balk at applying such anti-racketeering laws to street gangs.
Among those testifying against the bill was Bob Shepherd, a retired law professor and former assistant attorney general in Virginia.
"The amazing thing to a lot of us was how it got on this fast track," Shepherd said. "They're trying to ramrod it through without a lot of deliberation."
He expressed alarm over provisions that would allow federal prosecutors to transfer 16- and 17-year-olds to adult court without judicial review and impose mandatory minimum sentences regardless of circumstances. Critics say the sentencing provisions could require an additional 24,000 prison beds over the next decade.
However, the Fraternal Order of Police said mandatory minimums are appropriate for gang offenders who tend to commit multiple violent acts.
"They're not deterred by the prospect of 90 days on the state farm," union executive director Jim Pasco said.
Almost every crime committed now days is a felony, and guess what a convicted felon can't possess?
Note/mark
Listen, MS13 does not come from SOTB! (El Salvador), get over it (sarc.).
Neither did that AQ lady from "S.A." ... (sarc.) and the others.
Nope, no security threat here. Move on, move on.... (bladerunner).
Perimeter insecurity is the LAW. Get used to it, Citizen! (sarc.)
FBI.gov - Seeking Information: "ADNAN G. EL SHUKRIJUMAH" (ALIASES: "Adnan G. El Shukri Jumah; Abu Arif; Ja'far Al-Tayar; Jaffar Al-Tayyar; Jafar Tayar; Jaafar Al-Tayyar") (VIEW POSTER. Click Here.)
WASHINGTON TIMES.com: "GANG FOLLOWS ILLEGAL ALIENS" by Jon Ward (ARTICLE SNIPPET: "The violent MS-13 -- or Mara Salvatrucha -- street gang is following the migratory routes of illegal aliens across the country, FBI officials say, calling the Salvadoran gang the new American mafia. MS-13, which has a significant presence in the Washington area, and other gangs are spreading into small towns and suburbs by following illegal aliens seeking work in places such as Providence, R.I., and the Carolinas, FBI task force director Robert Clifford said. "The migrant moves and the gang follow," said Mr. Clifford, director of the agency's MS-13 National Gang Task Force. "If you follow the construction trade, this is where a lot of these immigrants go."") (May 5, 2005)
A Discussion on FREEREPUBLIC.com regarding an AP article via THE BROWNSVILLE HERALD: Houston - "AUTHORITIES COPE WITH GANG'S IMMIGRATION THROUGH VALLEY" (Note: "Mara Salvatrucha") (April 28, 2005) (Read More...)
Gang members stock up on weapons to patrol the neighborhood. Guns and protecting their neighborhood from rival gangs are big parts of gang culture. http://www.time.com/time/photoessays/gangs/photo_01.html
>>I'd bet 2/3 of them are here illegally from SOTB<<
Did you see the numbers that came out this week... I think it was $Five and a half billion spent keeping ilegals in prison.
MS-13 (and to some extent, gangs like the bloods, crips, etc) are not local regional street gangs.
This isn't dueces or aces or some crap.
They are national interstate crime syndicates.
They operate across state and even national (see southwest border) boundries.
They form networks and cells, and operate out of a command structure that, will require a multi-pronged joint law enforcement effort.
Sealing the borders or at least doing something there would be an easy first step.
These guys are rapidly escalating in complexities and financial operations with predominatly violent crimes as well as having absolutly no qualms or criteria of who they would work with.
In other words, don't be surprised if these are the kinds of guys who would try to sneak terrorists over the borders, or arm them.
Its absurd to think that states or local municipalities are supposed to be equipped to handle national organizations with multiple bases of operation.
Without going into details, there is at least one major MC gang thats known to do both surveilance and counter surveilance on law enforcement authorities, if these street gangs are going to or already are, then we've got a snowball thats already turning into an avalanche.
I'll bet the other 1/3 are anchor babies.
You'd be wrong and underestimating.
MS-13 is probably at least 75% illegal (and thats a conservative number).
You'd be hard pressed to find even one, just one, that was born in this country.
Personally, and I have seen and met several, I think the numbers are much higher then that. They're illegals, but they like to recruit (and or attack, exploit, or victimize) legals. That said, most of their members are either brought over or are other illegals they get over here.
They have a MO that is rapidly changing.
However, just looking them over and how they operate, its hard to see how they could have more then a handfull of legals.
yup ,...it is getting worse here in the NYC tri-state area[really the entire northeast]
La Raza is a BIG part of the problem. Our Congress better grow a spine and close the borders and start deporting ALL illegals and we'll get rid of the biggest part of the problem.
how abut 1/2 or more for California, where 50% of the 33 million population are immigrants or children on immigrants, which surely cannot be legal, since the government hasn't allowed 15 million to enter legally in the last two generations and of these, The 2000 Census found that 36.9 percent of California's foreign-born population had arrived in the state since 1990.
http://www.fairus.org/Research/Research.cfm?ID=1408&c=9
I feel uncomfortable with juveniles getting transferred to adult court without a hearing.. anybody else?
But I don't get the objection to nationalizing law enforcement - we've had national law enforcement for decades in the case of organized crime - and that's what this is - organized crime.
what if they are children of illegal immigrants, we have many hear, and they seem to have more rights than our kids?
Well won't they balk at this too, where nickle and dime gangs are involved? A prosecution would have to be asleep not to be able to show that MS-13 is a nationwide menace.
They will only murder the people that Americans won't murder.
New topic? This has to be the 9th or 10th MS-13 thread this weekend, both online and in the Phoenix/Tucson newspapers. The Arizona Repulsive did 2 or 3 related articles on Sunday...
>>what if they are children of illegal immigrants, we have many hear, and they seem to have more rights than our kids?<<
One of the many complications is that kids can be citizens if born here to illegals... then if you deport the parents you get kids on their own.
But I think any child should have a hearing before being tried as an adult.
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