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To: John Valentine
Now, I would have to agree that the theory of evolution, like all scientific theories, is a work in progress. There is no end of the road in science as the quest for knowledge is never ending. It is just not a legitimate criticism of scientific knowledge to say that it is incomplete.

I think the fundamental issue is not that it is incomplete but that it is fundamentally flawed in explaining the rise of complexity. Dr. Behe in Ithaca readily assented that some Darwinian mechanisms - like selection pressure - can be easily shown to exist, but they have very limited scope. The fundamental issue is that these cannot adequately explain the rise of irreducibly complex biochemical structures and processes - so complex that they won't work if one element is missing. But Darwinian approaches must insist that they developed incrementally, piece at a time. But since Darwinian processes have no foresight, it canot be "known" that there is an advantage to begin developing a complex system ("trust me, you'll need this protein synthesis gene sequence later!"). Each step (the genetic blueprint and the resulting biochemical product and process) must arise RANDOMLY, and at each step these structures/products must confer an adaptive advantage (or at least no disadvantage). Then, after countless generations, the last step/structure develops, the new biochemical machine can start up, and run, and confer an adaptive advantage? To quote Vizzini in The Princess Bride, "Inconceivable!" Yet this is exactly the foundation on which modern Darwinism stands. And the increasing unveiling of the complexity of the genome compounds the issue.

I remember sitting in college biochemistry listening to DNA replication mechanisms being explained. In high school we were told the DNA strands magically unfold, more DNA floats in, lines up, and voila, a perfect copy. Sorry - more complex. In real life a biological machine (an enzyme, a hunk of protein) slides along a chromosome, snipping the DNA strand in half. Another one works its way along the chromosome, piecing in new matching components according to the prescribed base-pairing. Finally, another enzyme works along the chromosome to CHECK the pairing. If it finds an error, it seeks to snip out the bad acid and bring in a correct one. But the really flooring fact is that this checking enzyme has steric structure ("handedness")- it can only read and fix in one direction. One one side of the chromosome it can work fine, but on the other, it has to back up two bases, then read ahead one, back up two, read ahead one. Remember, this all just happened. And it had to happen early on, as part of the genetic replication machinery essential to all life.

Yet, the theory of creationism is also "full of holes", that is to say that it fails to explain, in any way other than the circular, HUGE elements of the real world as we find it. It is not enough to say that "God just made it that way." That is not an adequate answer.

Indeed - it is intellectually lazy to rest there, I agree. But as regarding current Darwinist thought , Behe suggested pursuing inquiry solely along lines tainted with fatal logical flaws will ultimately go nowhere.

Yet, on threads like these, that argument is the one that is always resorted to. And always by people who have no trouble tossing the entire body of scientific research into the evolution of life on earth on the trash heap because some issue or another remains unexplained in full detail. It's basically dishonest.

See above comment. What is fundamentally dishonest is the position of the mainstream scientific establishment, assuring the general public that the overall pattern of evolution is proven, and there are just a few details to work out. I was at a university forum where a retired professor (not of biology) referred to the "proven facts" of evolution. A renowned and uniquely honest professor of evolutionary biology stood up to rip that guy's statement to shreds. He said, to paraphrase, "I was a graduate student during the great evolutionary synthesis of the 1960's, and nothing we thought true then is thought true any more ... We still don't have ONE good example of speciation!" [the divergence of a single species into two].

To see how thin the ice has often been, read "Of Moths and Men" (check Amazon or google it - I forget the author). Written by a non-creationist, it shows how contrived the famous "pepper moth" experiments (industrial melanism) were that you read about in high school (Hint: in real life the moths never land on sooty tree trunks but on leaves). No one has ever been able to replicate the claimed selection advantage, but they have become mythic in more ways than one. You will also read about what happens when even committed Darwinists stray too far off the plantation.

75 posted on 05/06/2005 8:48:44 PM PDT by Tirian
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To: Tirian

Bingo.


196 posted on 05/06/2005 10:37:20 PM PDT by raygun
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To: Tirian; John Valentine
To see how thin the ice has often been, read "Of Moths and Men" (check Amazon or google it - I forget the author). Written by a non-creationist, it shows how contrived the famous "pepper moth" experiments (industrial melanism) were that you read about in high school (Hint: in real life the moths never land on sooty tree trunks but on leaves). No one has ever been able to replicate the claimed selection advantage, but they have become mythic in more ways than one.

Wow, what a COMPLETE load of creationist horse crap!

I'm afraid that rather than demonstrate "how thin the ice has been" on the side of evolutionary biology, I'm afraid that instead you've just revealed how full of lies and errors the creationists typically are. The following was developed to deal with the same load of garbage about peppered moths from rabid creationist Jonathan Wells, but it also addresses and debunks each and every one of your own falsehoods. I especially like the pie charts which show the data that peppered moths rest on "tree trunks" or "trunk/branch joints" well over HALF the time -- what was that you were saying about how in "real life", the moths "never" rest on trunks, "but on leaves"? (Chart says: only 10.8% of the time on foliage). So what "real life" are you inhabiting that's different from the one the moths actually live in?

Also note that Judith Hooper's book, which you read, appears to "borrow" heavily from Wells's earlier deeply flawed creationist screed against the peppered moths. Hooper may or may not herself be a creationist, but she is at least naively repeating the creationist nonsense:

Chapter 7: Peppered Moths

So many things are wrong with Wells's treatment of peppered moths (Biston betularia) that it is hard to list them all; but I will try. The authoritative reference on this topic is Michael Majerus' 1998 book Melanism: Evolution in Action. This book includes two long chapters on Biston. The first chapter, "The peppered moth story," recounts the basic story of melanism in Biston, and relates how this story was pieced together by Kettlewell and others. The second chapter, "The peppered moth story dissected," gives a thorough critical review of the basic story, considering aspects and details of the basic story in the light of research (by Majerus and others) post-dating Kettlewell.

Crucially, however, Majerus clearly and explicitly concludes that, in his view, Kettlewell got things basically correct. At the beginning of his second peppered moth chapter, Majerus writes,

First, it is important to emphasize that, in my view, the huge wealth of additional data obtained since Kettlewell's initial predation papers (Kettlewell 1955a, 1956) does not undermine the basic qualitative deductions from that work. Differential bird predation of the typica and carbonaria forms, in habitats affected by industrial pollution to different degrees, is the primary influence of the evolution of melanism in the peppered moth (Majerus, 1998, p. 116).

Majerus is so clear on this point that one suspects that he was anticipating that his critique would be misinterpreted by non-peppered moth researchers. It seems that there is a "too good to be true" quality about the peppered moth story that leads people to interpret any hint of criticism as a sign that the whole basic story is crashing down. Scientists are by no means immune to this tendency, and indeed they may be more prone to it given the regularity with which popular ideas have been overturned throughout the history of science. The press has an even greater tendency towards snap judgements and oversimplifications when it comes to scientific discussions. Antievolutionists, on the other hand, have always been stuck muttering "it's just microevolution within a species." While this is true, the rapidity and obvious adaptiveness of the change effected by natural selection still seemed to give antievolutionists discomfort. Therefore, it is understandable that when Wells and his fans sniffed a scientific controversy over peppered moths (in truth it was a fairly marginal kind of controversy), they blew things way out of proportion.

Summary of Wells's treatment of moth resting places. To review, Wells's primary objection to the peppered moth story was this:

Most introductory textbooks now illustrate this classical story of natural selection with photographs of the two varieties of peppered moth resting on light- and dark-colored tree trunks. (Figure 7-1) What the textbooks don't explain, however, is that biologists have known since the 1980's that the classical story has some serious flaws. The most serious is that peppered moths in the wild don't even rest on tree trunks. The textbook photographs, it turns out, have been staged. (Icons, p. 138)

[Figure 7-1 is on Icons, p. 139; these are drawings by Icons illustrator Jody F. Sjogren; the source photo, if there is one, is not cited. Confusingly, the caption for the figure is not on page 139 but overleaf on page 140. These are not encouraging signs in a book purporting to critique textbooks.]

The discussion thus far has shown that Wells's "most serious objection" to the peppered moth story is completely baseless: first, peppered moths do in fact rest on tree trunks (a significant portion of the time although not the majority of the time, according to Majerus' data). Second, textbook photos are used to show relative crypsis of moth morphs, not to prove that peppered moths always rest in one section of the trees. And third, Majerus himself has taken unstaged photos of peppered moths on matching tree trunk backgrounds, and these are not significantly different than staged photos; this eviscerates whatever vestige of a point Wells thinks that he has.

The scientific literature. Having dealt with Wells's "most serious objection," let us turn to Wells's use of the scientific literature. The primary problem is that Wells gives inordinate weight to a few scattered review papers, by biologists who are not major peppered moth researchers [4], that question the standard view (that bird predation on different colored moths on differently polluted backgrounds caused the darkening of moth populations as pollution increased, and that as pollution decreased this process worked in the opposite direction). Their criticisms have been answered by peppered moth researchers (Grant, 1999; Cook, 2000; Grant and Clarke, 2000; Majerus, 2000). And, as pointed out in the introduction, since Wells bases his argument on the idea that the experts are disowning the 'icons' in their respective fields, Wells is falsified if those experts contradict him.


Book review of Hooper's "Of Moths and Men" from the peer-reviewed journal "Science":

Science, August 9, 2002 v297 i5583 p940(2)

Sour grapes of wrath. (Books: evolution). (Of Moths and Men Intrigue)_(book review) Bruce S. Grant.

Full Text: COPYRIGHT 2002 American Association for the Advancement of Science. Due to publisher request, Science cannot be reproduced until 360 days after the original publication date.

Of Moths and Men Intrigue, Tragedy and the Peppered Moth

by Judith Hooper

Fourth Estate, London, 2002. 397 pp. 15.99 [pounds sterling]. ISBN 1-84115-392-3.

Of Moths and Men The Untold Story of Science and the Peppered Moth

Norton, New York, 2002. 397 pp. $26,95, C$38.99. ISBN 0-393-05121-8.

Mark Twain once quipped that reports of his death had been exaggerated. Recent reports exaggerate the death of industrial melanism as an exemplar of natural selection. The latest is Judith Hooper's Of Moths and Men, which promises "the untold story of science and the peppered moth." What it delivers is a quasi-scientific assessment of the evidence for natural selection in the peppered moth (Biston betularia), much of which is cast in doubt by the author's relentless suspicion of fraud. This is unfortunate. Hooper is a gifted writer. In places, her prose is quite enjoyable, even brilliant. But, sadly, the book is marred by numerous factual errors and by misrepresentations of concepts and controversies.

The fundamental problem is Hooper's failure to clearly distinguish the evidence for natural selection and the mechanism of selection. A dead body with a knife in its back is evidence that a murder has been committed. An inability to establish beyond reasonable doubt the guilt of the leading suspect does not mean that the murder did not occur.

Population geneticists define evolution as a change in allele (gene) frequency. Adult peppered moths come in a range of shades from mottled gray (pale) to jet black (melanic). We know from extensive genetic analysis that these phenotypes result from combinations of multiple alleles at a single locus. Changes in the percentages of the phenotypes in wild populations are well documented. The changes continue and are observable even now. The steady trajectory and speed of changes in allele frequencies indicate that this evolution results primarily from natural selection. J. B. S. Haldane's original calculation of a selection coefficient was estimated from the number of generations it took for the melanic phenotype to effectively replace the pale phenotype during the 19th century. More detailed records document recent changes. For example, near Liverpool, England, the melanic phenotype declined from 93 to 18% in 37 generations (one generation per year); this change is consistent with a 15% selective disadvantage to genotypes with the dominant (melanic) allele.

We have amassed enormous records of changes in allele frequency in peppered moth populations that cannot be explained in the absence of natural selection. But what is the mechanism of selection? Even the answer "we have no clue" would not invalidate the conclusion that selection has occurred, Fortunately, the circumstances have left clues.

Geographic and temporal variations in the incidence of melanism correlate with atmospheric levels of S[O.sub.2] and suspended particles. (The correlations are not perfect; gene flow by migration spreads alleles, even into populations where they are deleterious.) Light reflectance from tree bark declines as suspended particles increase. Across a range of backgrounds, the pale and melanic phenotypes are differently conspicuous to the human eye. As early as 1896, J. W. Tutt suspected that birds were selectively eating conspicuous phenotypes in habitats variously modified by industrial fallout; H. B. D. Kettlewell first tested Tutt's idea in the 1950s.

It is on Kettlewell and his experiments that Hooper focuses her attention. In a biography more akin to character assassination than to objective disclosure, she portrays Kettlewell as an insecure misfit so driven to please his "boss," E. B. Ford, that he is suspected (by Hooper) of fudging his data. She bases her case on experimental design changes that Kettlewell himself described in his papers and on a sudden increase in the recapture rate of marked moths released in polluted woodlands. Several obvious things that Hooper left unexamined affect the size of moth catches, and her case is unconvincing. In addition, she presents it as if the very evidence for natural selection in peppered moths depends on the validity of Kettlewell's experiments. But even me evidence for bird predation does not depend on them.

Fortunately, science assesses the correctness of work by testing its repeatability. Kettlewell's conclusions have been considered in eight separate field studies, of various designs, performed between 1966 and 1987. Some of the design changes--such as reducing the density of moths, randomly assigning moths to trees, altering locations on trees where moths were positioned, and positioning killed moths to control for differences in viability and dispersal--were made to correct deficiencies identified in his original experiments. L. M. Cook's regression analysis of fitness estimates from these experiments plotted against phenotype frequencies at their various locations shows the studies to be remarkably consistent (1).

Other mechanisms of selection have been proposed. An inherent physiological advantage of melanic over pale phenotypes is consistent with the rise and spread of melanism, but the widespread decline in melanism that followed the Clean Air Acts obviates that interpretation. Although the possibility remains that physiological differences might be facultative (changing with conditions), so far no experimental work supports this idea. To date, only selective predation by birds is backed by experiment.

Hooper's book turns bizarre when she showcases American biologist T D. Sargent as a wounded iconoclast whose career was stultified because Kettlewell dismissed his work. She argues that Sargent is now under attack because he questions the "classical explanation" for industrial melanism. Hooper garbles the controversy regarding background selection by moths, and she entertains Sargent's protracted speculation about phenotypic induction. (He has offered no evidence that melanism is an induced character in adult peppered moths.) But most egregious is Sargent's assertion that studies in North America falsify the classical explanation. The history of melanism in American peppered moths--which are conspecific with Kettlewell's moths, not a separate species as Hooper indicates--closely parallels what has occurred in Britain, and melanism is correlated in like manner with levels of atmospheric pollution (2). The American studies corroborate rather than contradict the classical explanation.

The case for natural selection in the evolution of melanism in peppered moths is actually much stronger today than it was during Kettlewell's time. Textbook accounts should be expanded to reflect this newer information, and they should not cite Of Moths and Men as a credible resource.

References

(1.) L. M. Cook, Biol. J. Linn. Soc. 69, 431 (2000).

(2.) B.S. Grant, L. L. Wiseman, J. Hered. 93, 86 (2002).

The author is in the Department of Biology, College of William and Mary, Williamsburg, VA 23187-8795, USA. E-mail: Geometrid@aol.com

Named Works: Of Moths and Men Intrigue, Tragedy and the Peppered Moth (Book)

 
    Article A90752848
Also see: FINE TUNING THE PEPPERED MOTH PARADIGM, which cites further evidence and further studies clearly supporting the role of natural selection in the ups-and-downs of the peppered moths dimorphic populations in different areas as the local soot levels rose and then later fell.

So... would you care to revise your BS statement?

206 posted on 05/06/2005 10:54:28 PM PDT by Ichneumon
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