Russia 'mocking' WWII ceremonies

BBC ^ | 6 May, 2005

[struwwelpeter]

BTW, Kyiv will probably have a truncated Victory Day this year:

...v ehtom godu reshili ne delat' voenniy parad na Kreshchatike, t.k. veteranov ostalos' malo i ikh sam Yushchenko sprashival: 'nuzhen li vam parad?' Oni otvetili, chto im ne pod silam idti po Kreshchatiku, utomitel'no. Reshili nakryvat' stoly, kotorye postavyat na Kreshchatike i ugoshchat' vsekh veteranov. A kak budet na samom dele, ehshche ne znayu. Obsuzhdalas' dolgo ehta tema, chto reshili ya ne znayu. No kontsert na Maydane obyazatel'no budet, feerverki, massovye gulyan'ya.

"This year they decided not to have a military parade on the Kreshchatik (Kyiv's downtown), since there aren't a lot of veterans and Yushchenko asked them himself, 'Do you need a parade?' They answered that they didn't have the strength to go along the Kreshchatik. They decided to set out tables of food and treat all the veterans. How it will be in reality, I don't know. But there'll be a concert on the Independence Square, fireworks, lots of strolling around."

She writes in Russian because my Ukrainian is pretty bad. Another interesting letter:

V voskresen'e Den' Pobedy. A u nas eshche est' veterany povstancheskoy armii, kotorye vo vremya voyny voevali i protiv sovetskoy armii, i protiv Gitlera. Tak mezhdu nimi takaya 'voyna' razrazilas', uzhas. Povstantsy pretenduyut na vosstanovlenii spravedlivosti i priznat' ikh zashchitnikami i veteranami voyny za samostiynu Ukrainu, a te krichat, chto oni zashchitniki. Yushchenko pytalsya ikh pomerit', no, uvy. A vchera po teleku pokazyvali Sloveniyu, tak tam tozhe est' takie, kotorye shli za kommunistami, a drugie za monarkhiyu. I tozhe sporyat za vosstanovlenie zvanie veteranov. Ya posmotrela na ehtikh bozhikh oduvanchikov i dumayu, zahem im vse ehto? Ostalos' zhit'-to maksimum dva dnya, a oni eshche voyut za kakuyu-to svoyu pravdu. A mozhet ehto ikh i derzhit?

"Sunday is Victory Day. We still have veterans of the insurgent army, which during the war warred both against the Soviet Army and against Hitler. Between them a "war" has broken out, it's terrible. The rebels demand restoration of justice and to be recognized as defenders of the Ukraine and veterans of the war, while the others shout that they are the defenders. Yushchenko tried to calm them down, but in vain. Yesterday on TV they showed Slovenia, there were also those who followed the Communists and those for the monarchy. And they also argue for the restoration of the title of veteran. I watched on these devine dandelions and I thought, why do they need all this? They've got a maximum of two days left to live, but still they fight for some kind of truth. Perhaps that's all that keeps them going?"

[RusIvan]

It is you hero. The fighter for western democracy. If it was your chose you would ally with him?

[spanalot]

When the Kremlin is accused of the Genocide of 1932 of 10 million, they opine "Blame the Georgians! Stalin was Georgian!"

When the Kremlin wants to garnish credit for defeating their ex- ally Hitler, they conveniently credit the entire losses of the USSR to their column.

Here are the facts: Not only were actual Russian losses less than Ukraine, as a percentage they pale to the losses suffered by MOST other countries.

The Nazis did not travel through Moscow to reach Stalin's industrial heartland - the massive losses on the Eastern Front actually occurred in countries that were already bled dry by two decades of Communist Genocide.

---

http://www.infoukes.com/history/ww2/page-29.html

World War II in Ukraine:


Population Losses in World War II by Country


by
Andrew Gregorovich

---

Population Losses in World War II by Country

Total Losses in Thousands
Militry Civlian Total %population
Ukraine 2,500 5,500 8,000 19.1
Germany 4,500 2,000 6,500 9.1
Russi * 1,781 4,000 5,781 (?) 2.9
Poland 123 4,877 5,000 19.6
Japan 2,000 350 2,350 3.4
Yugo 300 1,400 1,700 10.6
France 250 350 600 1.5
Italy 400 100 500 1.1
Romania 300 200 500 3.7
Greece 100 350 450 6.2
Hungary 136 294 430 4.6
Grt Brit. 290 60 350 0.7
Czechosl 46 294 340 3.0
Austria 270 104 374 5.6
USA 0 300 - 300 0.2
Holland 12 198 210 2.4
Finland 84 16 100 2.7
Belgium 13 75 88 1.1
Canada 0 42 - 42 0.4


* This estimate of Russian losses does not include citizens of ByeloRussia, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan,

Source: Ukraine During World War II 1938-1945, by V. Kusyk, Kyiv-Paris-New York-Toronto, 1992, p. 702. B. Urlanis Guerres et populations, Moscou 1975, p. 319-323; Das Dritte Reich (Muenchen 1985) Band 2. S. 404.

---

The total USSR military loss in World War II was 8,668,400 including Ukraine, Byelorussia, Russia, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Armenia, Georgia, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Tadjikistan, etc. according to General M. Moiseyev, Chief of General Staff, USSR Armed forces (Voennoistoricheskiy zhurnal no. 3, March 1990; quoted by Peter G. Tsouras in The Great Patriotic War, p. 240.

---

[RusIvan]

I agree with your numbers. I know that real russian losses during WW2 lesser then ukranian. No wonder all the war mostely went through thier regions.
BUT anyway Hitler came for Ukraine. SO war went there.

[RussianBoor]

You have conveniently forgotten Belarus where the losses were almost 50%. However, your point is valid. The role of Ukraine and other peoples of the former USSR in the defeat of Hitler is so great it cannot be overestimated. There is some little "but" though. How about the role of Ukraine (along with Georgia as the birthplace of Stalin and Beria) in "occupation" of the Baltic states now everybody wants Russia and only Russia to apologize for? Were there not ethnic Ukrainians and other peoples in the Soviet troops which entered the Baltic republics in 1945? I hope you will not claim there were only native Russians? By the way, in 1990 there were over 3 million members of the communist party of Ukraine, among 18 millions of party members in the whole USSR. How about their responsibility for Stalin's and USSR's crimes?

My point is that either Russia or Ukraine or Baltic states or Georgia cannot have all of it. All these peoples lived in the same state called Russian empire for centuries and all those people played their role in Bolshevik's coming to power and in the crimes committed by Communists and should share the responsibility. And yes, millions of people of all nationalities of the USSR were victims of the WWII and the ultimate victors. I find it outrageous that celebrations of this great day have turned out ugly but again it is not Russia or at least not only Russia who should be blamed here. And as far as the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact is concerned, it was condemned by the Parliament of the country that signed it: the USSR. If we want to start condemning it again it should be condemned by all ex-members of the USSR, Ukraine included, and not by Russia alone.

[Tailgunner Joe]

Your hero:

[spanalot]

"And as far as the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact is concerned, it was condemned by the Parliament of the country that signed it: the USSR. If we want to start condemning it again it should be condemned by all ex-members of the USSR, Ukraine included, and not by Russia alone."

Just when you thought you have heard every conceivable spin to make the Kremlin warm and fuzzy, along comes a new one.

Russianboorman, you are a true craftsman at your art.

[Tailgunner Joe]

[Tailgunner Joe]

Russian President Vladimir Putin (C), Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov (L)
and Moscow Mayor Yuri Luzhkov walk in front of a new World War II
memorial in Moscow, May 7, 2005. Putin claimed the Soviet Union
made the decisive contribution to the victory over Nazism.
REUTERS/ITAR-TASS/KREMLIN PRESS SERVICE

[Tailgunner Joe]

Russian soldiers march during a rehearsal for a military parade in central St.Petersburg, May 4, 2005.

[struwwelpeter]

[Tailgunner Joe]

Young members of a military history club, dressed in Soviet war time uniform, wait for their
turn to perform in a concert for the World War II veterans during celebrations of the 60th anniversary of the victory over Nazi Germany in downtown Moscow, Sunday, May 8, 2005.

[Grzegorz 246]

Interesting.

[Lukasz]

More photos from Moscow's preparations, red color is dominant :)

[1rudeboy]

Lithuania thinks the EU is just like Communism

What?

[Cvengr]

Russia in 2005 lacks strong democratic institutions, while political freedoms, civil liberties and the rule of law are weak, the signatories allege.

Evidence to contradict this will arise when they form their own institutions of freedom such as a cyrillic version of 'FreeRepublic'.

[spanalot]

I am glad to see Bush bashing FDR over Yalta - that was a long time coming.

[RussianBoor]

And why do you think such versions do not exist? I know several, although they are not as big as the free republic and not as strictly partisan. Although...such site as germany.ru (a web portal for Russian speakers in Germany which attracts users from all Europe as well as the former Soviet Union and some even from North America) exists since 1998 and currently has 267,000 registered users. Free republic says it has "over 200,000".

[RussianBoor]

And what would you think? You and other former people of the USSR were active participants of all communist atrocities and now all of you are shining and innocent new democracies and Russians are the only villains who should apologize for everything since Kievan Rus? No such luck, sorry.

[GOP_1900AD]

Many hammers and sickles in all the celebrations the past few days. The hammer and sickle has only one, unmistakeable meaning. There is nothing "nationalist" about it. Apologists cannot tap dance around all those hammers and sickles.