Russia, the missing link in Britain's VE Day mythology

AEI (Reprinted from Sunday Times) ^ | 05-03-2005 | Norman Davies

[DuncanWaring]

Darn, you're good.

Where'd you find all that?

[dvwjr]

Glad you liked it. Just from books in my library and when I visit my brother-in-law/Sister's home with his extensive WWI/WWII/misc library. Get some quick confirming sources via Google to back up the points since quick confirmation is better than a footnote type cite for a book which may not be available.

There are errors in history, that's unavoidable. My problem with poster JB6 is not that of just a difference in the minor details of the historical record ("Mr. Spock, I believe that the US shipped 400,000 trucks to the USSR in the Second World War". "No Captain, it was 405,733 to be precise") I have a real problem when an argument put forth depends on a personnally-held historical fallacy which has no support from ANY historical record. JB6 thinks that the US never produced another atomic weapon until 1949. I wonder how all those two atomic tests at Bikini Atoll in July 1946 happened...

dvwjr

[Winniesboy]

The brits usually manage to leave the US out of WW2, also.

And, ahem...vice versa also, don't you think? (to a considerably greater degree, in my obervation).

[Lukasz]

Excellent article, Norman Davies as always lecturing the westerners :)

And the European parliament, when recently asked to grant a minute’s silence in honour of 22,000 allied officers shot by the NKVD (the communist secret police), refused.

and of course socialist has nothing to do with communists /sarcasm

“alternative forms of democracy”.

they were served heavy stuff in those days!

[Lukasz]

Interesting, and how many nukes has US today?

[FreedomPoster]

"And it (the Soviet Union) was ruled by a Georgian tyrant who entered the war against the Reich only when attacked himself."

Bovine scat.

The USSR entered the war with the signing of the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact and the dissection of Poland. They initially entered as allies of Hitler. This must not be forgotten.

[FreedomPoster]

So what were the chances that Russian soldier ended up in a gulag for having been "tainted" by direct contact with the West?

[RusIvan]

So what were the chances that Russian soldier ended up in a gulag for having been "tainted" by direct contact with the West?==

My garaddad started war in Stalinglad in 1942. Then marrched through Europe. He was in Beograd, Sofia, Budapest, Prague, Vienna.
In 1947 he returned home. No problems with "direct contact with the West".

[Kozak]

German forces included allies: Italy, Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, Croatia, Slovania, Slovakia, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia and Finland. SS (loyal to Hitler period) had units composed of all of the above, plus: Albanians, Bosnians, French, British, Belgian (per capita more then even Germans), Dutch, Ukranians and Greeks.

Don't forget a few others as well...

"By the autumn of 1944 the Waffen-SS European volunteer tally sheet contained the following elements: 2 Dutch brigades, 2 Belgian brigades, 1 French brigade and 1 Italian brigade, (all being transformed into divisions), 2 Croat Moslem divisions, 1 Albanian Moslem division, 2 Hungarian divisions with 2 more in the works that never panned out, 2 Scandinavian/German divisions, 2 Latvian divisions, 1 Estonian division, 2 Russian divisions (both of which would later be transferred to the Vlasov Liberation Army), 1 Ukranian division, 1 Italian/German division, 1 Hungarian/German division, 1 Balkan/German division, 1 Serbian division, numerous ethnic brigades from the Soviet Union, and small detachments of Spaniards, Britons, Greeks, Romanians, Bulgarians, Arabs and Indians ."

[Bryan24]

Interesting article.

I differ with the conclusions that the author draws about the abilities of the Soviet armies. The sheer numbers of casualties they inflicted on the Germans does not clearly indicate their prowess on the battlefield.

History has shown that Stalin would send unarmed prisoners into battle ahead of the troops to "soak up" mines, rifle fire and other means of German efforts. That is not prowess, that is butchery.

We should recognize it for what it is.

[FreedomPoster]

I don't doubt you for a minute. But clearly, lizol and I have both seen material that indicated that some were sent to the gulags, just for having too much contact with the West. And don't forget, most of the cities you mentioned were behind the Iron Curtain postwar, so might not be seen as being as "contaminating", as, say, someone who interacted with Americans in Germany.

Hmmm, some more research is needed here, if I can find the time.

[jb6]

Where on earth would they have gotten an Indian contingent. The two Russian divisions weren't formed until Nov 1944 and they had 9 Jewish officers amongst them. By that point the Nazis weren't to picky to whom they turned to help stop Stalin.

[Kozak]

Where on earth would they have gotten an Indian contingent.

My guess would be from captured British Empire troops. Or some really determined anti British Indians who somehow managed to get to Axis territory.

[Grzegorz 246]

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=307

[StoneColdGOP]

BTTT for later, more thorough read.

[sergey1973]

"History has shown that Stalin would send unarmed prisoners into battle ahead of the troops to "soak up" mines, rifle fire and other means of German efforts. That is not prowess, that is butchery.

We should recognize it for what it is."

Definitely we should and eventually there will be more and more books and films in the US and the Western Europe about the situation on the Eastern Front. It's totally unjust not to mention or downplay the sheer magnitude of fighting and suffering on the Eastern Front.