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Marine raid breaks gender barrier (Women in Combat)
Stars and Stripes ^ | 4 May 2005 | Sandra Jontz

Posted on 05/04/2005 4:50:17 AM PDT by Cornpone

KARMAH, Iraq — Lance Cpl. Erin Libby doesn’t want to be treated the same as her male Marine Corps counterparts. But she does want to be treated as an equal — even in combat.

In a way, she got her chance last weekend when Marines from the 3rd Battalion, 8th Marine Regiment led a raid into the city of Karmah in search of high-value targets and hidden weapons.

“We’re out here, and we’re rocking on the front line,” said Libby, a 21-year-old from Niceville, Fla., who pinned on the rank of lance corporal during a break in the mission.

In all, 14 women from Combat Logistics Battalion 8 were called away from their usual jobs of supplying ammunition, food, water, fuel and mail for the three-day offensive that kicked off in the pre-dawn hours Saturday about 15 miles northeast of Fallujah.

Cultural sensitivities precluded male Marines from searching women, so the female Marines were meant to deflate fears of Iraqi men and women, said the battalion executive officer, Maj. Larry Miller. It was a first in Iraq to have female Marines embedded at the lowest levels of infantry companies and working alongside their male counterparts, said Chief Warrant Officer 2 Jill St. John, 39, an embark officer with CLB-8.

“This is history. This is huge for us,” St. John said. “I’ve been in the Marine Corps for 18 years, and this is my first opportunity to be out with an infantry company. Even five years ago, the Marine Corps wouldn’t be doing this. This is a major change in how we think women can be used in the military.”

While female Marines were used in similar fashion during missions in Afghanistan, they were not fully integrated with line companies, St. John said.

“It wasn’t quite as dynamic as this. They’d wait at a camp in the rear and were called in when needed, often called in for resupply,” such as bringing in food and water.

“I’m so sick of hearing females can’t do this and females can’t do that. Blah, blah, blah,” said Cpl. Rachel Bergstrong, 20, of Cumming, Ga. “We’re in it as much as the grunts, and we love it.”

The battalion’s Lima and India companies absorbed the women into their ranks, giving them the primary mission to search women and children suspected of hiding anything. But the female Marines’ presence was not intended to show a softer side of the Marine Corps, said Capt. Mark Liston, commander of India Company.

“They’re still a fighting force for us,” he said. “With them, we can grab a wife [of a suspected insurgent], for example, put the screws to her, and find out where the husband might be hiding. And while it hasn’t been used here, [the insurgency has] been known to use female suicide bombers,” Liston said.

But there were times in which the softer side appeared in both the male and female Marines. When they weren’t raiding homes and businesses, the Marines were on humanitarian missions, handing out food, water and toys, especially to the hordes of children who flocked to the streets when the Humvees rolled in.

“Whenever I read about these humanitarian missions, I always thought it was so cheesy,” Libby said after tossing out handfuls of stuffed animals. “Now I’m the one sounding cheesy, but I like this. It makes you feel good inside.”

They’re often referred to as the WMs, or women Marines. They hate it, and the crass distortions of the acronym some say they’ve heard.

“We’re Marines, bottom line,” said Cpl. Dawn Lansberry, 31.

“I’m out here to prove a point,” Libby said. “A lot of males think females are weak. It’s time to shine, and I’m going to leave here golden.”


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Front Page News; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: combat; iraq; iraqwar; marine; oif; patrols; raids; war; wm; women; womenincombat
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To: joesnuffy
You hit it right on the head.

Someone needs to discuss some basic physiology with her. Women are physically weaker than men, and Marine infantry-style combat is a physically demanding work of the highest order. A Marine unit fights as a unit, and forging weak links into that chain weakens the entire chain, and places the lives of all in greater danger.

Social experimenters will protest that even an all-male unit has its weakest male member. And they might even try to argue that there are some women who are stronger than some weak men. Although they would be right in both cases in a narrow and limited sense, they would be dangerously wrong in a larger sense. The exceptions do not disprove the general rule, and they do not form a persuasive reason for changing the policy that keeps women out of front-line combat.

A more insidious effect of allowing women to serve in front-line combat is that it serves further to dilute traditional gender roles thereby further weakens the traditional family (we have diluted those roles so much already that I am confident that my even raising the point in warning will generate sneer of derision from some conservatives, not just liberals). When women are viewed simply as smaller men, we have a disaster in the making vis a vis the families of America.

41 posted on 05/04/2005 6:05:03 AM PDT by JCEccles (Andrea Dworkin--the Ward Churchill of gender politics.)
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To: Pete98
but what do you think an al-jazeera tape of 20-30 arabs gang-raping a pretty US female soldier would do to troop morale

It would really piss off our troops, and the terrorists had better watch out. I'm not too sure about this assumption of rape anyway, as the women captured in the initial war, and in the Gulf War, were treated well -- better than the men. That is part of their religion.

42 posted on 05/04/2005 6:11:31 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: Sacajaweau
And when you stand before a 200 lb fellow wounded warrior and admit "I can't carry him" to safety......

Most soldiers wouldn't be able to do that. However, I knew a woman soldier who could.

43 posted on 05/04/2005 6:13:07 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: ruiner

Maybe an old timer. That used to be FL's abbreviatation back in the day before they shortened all states to just 2 letter abbreviations. But you're right it's long out of date.


44 posted on 05/04/2005 6:18:30 AM PDT by Sax
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To: JCEccles
Women carry this equality bit up their ....Someday, these equity specialists should examine their strengths and weaknesses and put themselves in their proper place. It might be a CEO....but in truth, most women don't want to be CEO's.

Hillary is a great person to look at for an examination of strength and weaknesses and she would have to admit that she has more weaknesses.....and then she should take into account that without Bubba, she would likely be a nobody at this point in time. Heard she still hates to be called Mrs. Clinton....but that is who she is.

45 posted on 05/04/2005 6:18:44 AM PDT by Sacajaweau (God Bless Our Troops!!)
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To: antiRepublicrat
Most soldiers wouldn't be able to do that. However, I knew a woman soldier who could.

You know one woman who could do this? This is your justification for changing the policy that keeps women out of comabt?

One can prove many an inane theory by cherry-picking one exceptional case to buttress his argument. Implementing inane theories in a combat setting has disastrous consequences.

46 posted on 05/04/2005 6:19:57 AM PDT by JCEccles (Andrea Dworkin--the Ward Churchill of gender politics.)
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To: antiRepublicrat

Baloney!


47 posted on 05/04/2005 6:20:34 AM PDT by Sacajaweau (God Bless Our Troops!!)
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To: antiRepublicrat

Baloney!


48 posted on 05/04/2005 6:21:19 AM PDT by Sacajaweau (God Bless Our Troops!!)
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To: bella1

Did you see the spoof MadTV did on women on submarines called "Crimson Tide"? It was hilarious and clearly showed why........

I better stop.


49 posted on 05/04/2005 6:22:25 AM PDT by Delta 21 (MKC USCG -ret)
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To: JCEccles
Women are physically weaker than men

Tell that to an old girlfriend of mine who was an Army sergeant. She looked fairly normal physique-wise, but she could run any man in her company into the ground, and most likely could have easily kicked my ass. Glad I never pissed her off. There was a female in another company who was built like a tank, and was the best deuce-and-a-half driver I've ever seen (if you've driven them, you know the upper body strength it takes). She was also our M-60 gunner.

Granted, such women are the exception rather than the rule. But in an military where you're supposed to excel, why hold these exceptional women back? Let them prove themselves. Let them take the male PT test, let them hump it with the rest. If they can hack it during exercises then let them fight, if not, well, buh-bye!

50 posted on 05/04/2005 6:23:36 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: Sacajaweau
Baloney!

Thank you for a very well thought-out reply that logically refutes every point I made. I must concede in the face of such eloquently reasoned discourse.

51 posted on 05/04/2005 6:31:26 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: need_a_screen_name

I thought the article was referring to BAM, but I don't know any alternate meaning to WM ...


52 posted on 05/04/2005 6:32:47 AM PDT by fnord (497 1/2 feet of rope ... I just carry it)
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To: ruiner
WTF is Fla.? Florida? FL? F.L. F.L.O.R?

In all fairness to the author, FLA was the official postal abbreviation for Florida, in years past. I don't remember exactly when they made the switch over to the 2 letter abbreviations, but I think that form of abbreviation is more of a reflection of the author's age.

53 posted on 05/04/2005 6:33:39 AM PDT by JavaTheHutt ( Gun Control - The difference between Lexington Green and Tiennimen Square.)
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To: cyborg

When you say 80's music, are you referring to Van Halen or Flock of Seagulls?


54 posted on 05/04/2005 6:34:26 AM PDT by massgopguy (massgopguy)
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To: Cornpone

It seems that they are doing everything they can to avoid involving them in a firefight or an assault - no instance of a firing their weapon is even mentioned in the article. They are called forward once females or children are detained for one purpose:

“With them, we can grab a wife [of a suspected insurgent], for example, put the screws to her, and find out where the husband might be hiding."

Have our guys roughing up Arab women in front of a village of locals would create more problems. The female Marines are employed for searches and interrogations in the field. Of course there are risks of ambushes or counter attacks that would see these women engaged in combat, but I am sure the risks have been weighed appropriately by brass in the field.


55 posted on 05/04/2005 6:34:55 AM PDT by Sax
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To: JCEccles
One can prove many an inane theory by cherry-picking one exceptional case to buttress his argument

It's not a theory. If there are those that can hack it according to the male standards with no privilege or special treatment, then let them (no female PT test, please). To keep them back means 1) they aren't living to their full potential and 2) we just lost an effective fighting soldier.

56 posted on 05/04/2005 6:35:39 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: Pete98
There's no way the rampant leftism in our military and in the press would allow our troops to kill random ragheads.... Our leftists simply will not let us fight in the proper way.

Well, I see that you're a fool. Why don't you shut up?

57 posted on 05/04/2005 6:37:42 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: Sacajaweau
Margaret Thatcher always struck me as a tough leader who could stand equal to any man in terms of good judgment and decisiveness.

I have known many other women (and worked for some) who had similar qualities of mental and moral toughness. Without exception I can say that these women did not and do not believe women should serve in front-line combat units. It is because these women possess superior judgment and mental toughness that they clearly see the terrible downside to allowing women to fight in front-line combat. They don't allow selfish sentiment and willful ignorance to muddle their thinking.

We need more such women, and fewer metrosexual males and effete liberals, in leadership positions. That's one reason why I'm excited about the potential addition of Justice Janice Brown to the United States Supreme Court.

58 posted on 05/04/2005 6:39:01 AM PDT by JCEccles (Andrea Dworkin--the Ward Churchill of gender politics.)
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To: massgopguy

Both :-) and various heavy metal hairbands


59 posted on 05/04/2005 6:39:09 AM PDT by cyborg (Serving fresh, hot Anti-opus since 18 April 2005)
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To: Delta 21

Dang, sorry i missed it.


60 posted on 05/04/2005 6:47:25 AM PDT by bella1 (red county, blue state)
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