Russian victory festivities open old wounds in Europe

In the spring of 1943 the Nazi Government in Germany announced that a mass grave had been found in Katyn Forest near Smolensk in the Soviet Union. Over 1,700 bodies were discovered and the Germans claimed that men were Polish soldiers who had been murdered by being shot in the head. It was suggested that the men had been killed by the NKVD.

A Polish government-in-exile in London under the leadership of Wladyslaw Raczkiewicz, Wladyslaw Sikorski and Stanislaw Mikolajczyk, demanded an investigation of the deaths by the Red Cross. Joseph Stalin refused claiming that the Poles was a victim of Nazi propaganda. When they continued to complain Stalin decided to break off relations with the Polish government.

After the Second World War it was discovered that over 10,000 Polish soldiers being held in three prison camps near Smolensk were unaccounted for.

In 1989, Mikhail Gorbachev revealled to the world that in March 1940, Joseph Stalin had given the orders for the execution of 25,700 Polish soldiers in Soviet prison camps. He also admitted that two other mass graves had been found in the Katyn area.

Greatful my ass, FDR and Churchill sold Poland out to Stalin at Terehan and Yalta causing 50+ years of misery for one of our most loyal Allies in WWII.

Well, Ivan - what has happened just happened. There is no way to make a river to flow th eother way (altough Stalin tried it).

What I propose today?

My suggestion and expectation is, that Russians will stop re-write history, like in the examples given by the above article:

The Russian foreign ministry issued a statement on the allies' Yalta conference of February 1945, declaring that Poland should be "grateful" for the pactwhich divided Europe and erected the iron curtain.

For the Poles "to complain about Yalta is a sin _ unconscionable", the Russian government stated.

Katyn, they add, cannot be classified as a war crime, since the Soviet Union was not at war with Poland.

Russians continue to insist that they were not at war with Poland, nor did they invade or occupy the Baltic countries, but "liberated" them.

All quoted above is just pure BS, inteded probably only to provoke Poles.
And I'd love Russian to stop saying anything like this or to shut up, if they have nothing else to say.

And there is one funny thing - relating to our previous discussions.
All the issues mentioned above are related to Soviet Union's action. Can you explain, why today's Russia defends such views - if it has nothing to do with Soviet Union (as you insist).
I think that no other post-Soviet country spreads BS like this except Russia.

Russians don't say - "OK, we agree it was evil, but we're not responsible for that. It was Soviet Union, not Russia." (like you say)
No, they say - "It was OK, everythigng was perfect, and Poles should be grateful for that".

So now try to get into my shoes and figure out how Polish patriot will react to something like that.

Russians don't say - "OK, we agree it was evil, but we're not responsible for that. It was Soviet Union, not Russia." (like you say)
No, they say - "It was OK, everythigng was perfect, and Poles should be grateful for that".===

I don't know why russian GOVERMENT doesn't say that.
But I know what ordinary russians say. They say like in your first statement.

I have to be honest and tell you that there are small bunch of people which are pro-commie and even pro-imperial.
They think that most what empire did was good. They agreed that there was some "mistakes" done. By Stalin and others.
Russia has to overcome this. But she will be eventually.

Russians are suffered from hands of communists more then everyone else. Commies needed to quell russians first (what they did by Civil War 1917-22) and later to use russian resources to strengthen USSR.
BUT some russians ready to forget and forgive because commies kind of "reestablished Russian Empire".

I like many just think it is way to nowhere. Russia doesn't need Empire anymore since there are nuclier weapon and missiles. Hence russian borders can be defended by just annihilation of capital of possible offender.
Russia just need peace for 30+ years and then she will be prosperious again.

SO maybe some russian goverment people think like (I speculate here):

"What Poland complains? If she get lot of lands as followings of Yalta. They lost some people in Katyn from hands of Stalin- we lost much more from same hands. Poland lost east lands by hands of Stalin but which never was polish then got german lands from same Stalin.
Poland doesn't propose to return those lands! SO DEFACTO Poland supports Yalta.
Everything else is just propaganda and agitation of people.
Anyway it is not the matter for discussion with Russia. Since Russia cann't return to Poland estearn lands and it wasn't Russia who killed people in Katyn.
So what pretensions to us? Let polish attack Georgia today. Stalin is thier guy. May be me will join polish in this endevour since we have long bill to Stalin too."

The main thought here is "leave us alone with those Stalins and his nonrussian commies". If you raise question about deeds of russian commies then it will be russian matter.

So what general prosecutor office sends to Poland is just "otpiska" on russian. Means "formal answer in order to be left alone".
Example.
Poland asks if there was war crime in Katyn. Then they see in papers. Hence tell since formally on the moment of crime the 2d soviet-polish war was ended then no war crime.
Poland asks if there was genoside. Then they look to formal definition of genoside as killing of nationality or race(like killing of jews by germans). Then since polish officers were killed but soldiers was let home they conclude there wasn't genoside. Just "massacre" means mass murder.
If Polish side are agitated then Russian side irritated by this matter and its answers will be in that way.

there are small bunch of people which are pro-commie and even pro-imperial.
They think that most what empire did was good. They agreed that there was some "mistakes" done. By Stalin and others.
(...) BUT some russians ready to forget and forgive because commies kind of "reestablished Russian Empire".

This is something, I'll fully agree with you. The problem is - in my opinion - that this "small bunch of people" are in charge of today's Russia.

I'm not saying, that Putin and his crew are communistst. That they believe in nationalisation of industry, collective agriculture and s**t like that. This is something "reserved" for Zyuganov and morons like him.

But I'm absolutely positive, that they are Russian imeprialists, and what they've been doing now is aimed to rebuild the Empire. And I also think, that they would agree with me, that the SU was a form of it.

That's why they fight so desperately for keeping the good fame of the SU and its deeds.

As to terminology.
If Katyn - according to Russian authorities - cannot be classified as a war crime only because the Soviet Union allegedly was not at war with Poland, so - in fact - no atrocity commited by Nazi Germany in Poland can't be considered as on either (as Germany did not declare war against Poland either, just invaded it).

So - if such a logic is supposed to be correct - my advice to any country's leader is: if you want to start a war, and want to avoid any threat of being prosecuted for war crimes - don't declare the war - just invade.. Then you'll say - Hey! What do you want from me? I was not at war with ....land (...stan, or whatever).

But I'm absolutely positive, that they are Russian imeprialists, and what they've been doing now is aimed to rebuild the Empire. And I also think, that they would agree with me, that the SU was a form of it. ===

You know frankly I would say that Putin and his team are imperialistic but ecomonically not politically.
As he said many times it is against good conscienness to want to restore any kind of Russian Empire today. But maybe it is against heart to tell that therea re no nostalgia for Empire between russians. Not Soviet Empire where russians wasn't first ruling nation but for RUSSIAN Empire of czars.
BUT majority understands that those days are over.

Today Russia may be great only in area of economy not military might. In era of nuclier weapon when many nations can be nuclier powers only might which nation can weild and use is economical.

So Putin and his team want the economical influence on neibors. No of them want to occupy neibors by force. It is counter-productive. Absolutely.

You may say how about chechens? With chechens there are one different fact.
Chechens got lands of Terek Cossacks from hands of commies (chechen were commie allies during Civil war 1917-22). The northern Terek lands.
So it was decided that Russia won't forfeit those lands. Second thing chechens began to expel russian population from those lands just before 1st Chechen war.
So Russia decide to keep lands and punish those to offend russian population.
I don't say that it was totally prudent.
Accually Russia today just turned this war into internal chechen conflict. Where good chechens kill bad ones. This war will continue for years.
I just want to note that it is nothing totally different from what America does in Iraq today.

So - if such a logic is supposed to be correct - my advice to any country's leader is: if you want to start a war, and want to avoid any threat of being prosecuted for war crimes - don't declare the war - just invade.. Then you'll say - Hey! What do you want from me? I was not at war with ....land (...stan, or whatever). ==

I agree with you it is kind of foxiness.

I cann't keep myself of to notice to you that our good guy United States used same logic during Serbia bombing. No war declaration then no war then no war crimes of killing civilians by bombs in the town Beograde.
2000+ civilians were killed in Serbia by bombings. They wasn't military officers like in Katyn but just ordinary folk like oldies and children. I didn't here voices of protests from Poland and not only her during this action (no war since ther wasn't war declaration).

I know that many things are forgiven to good guys here(Tailgunner Joe explained it to me). They may do thing forbidden and condemned for bad guys. Double standards but "sue me" thing:).
Just notice that this kind of things is done but good guys too.

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