New Pope condemns Spain gay bill

BBC ^ | April 22 | Robert Piggott

[X. OTerica]

No; man's law never supersedes God’s law.

The matter at hand was how people of faith deal with civil law in issues of conscience that Scripture does not address. In particular, the Bible admonishes us to obey civil authorities and law. This is particularly troublesome when civil law is immoral.

[Integrityrocks]

I was hoping someone would post this article. I saw it earlier. Anyone who doesn't believe we are on a long walk down a short pier to the end of the world as we know it, is drinking Kool Aide.

[Integrityrocks]

Quitting your job isn't civil disobedience, its your right. That's what they suggested; to quit rather than submit.

[Integrityrocks]

"..You represent the Catholic Church doctrine as authoritative.."

It is.

[X. OTerica]

I agree completely. However, it was the following sentence that started this discussion.

Interviewed in the Italian newspaper, Corriere de la Serra, Cardinal Lopez Trujillo said the Church was making an urgent call for freedom of conscience for Roman Catholics and appealing to them to resist the law.

The bold text seemed to imply that the Church was indeed encouraging civil disobedience. Perhaps not, but it has been a very interesting debate!

Until another day ...

[cardinal4]

You know, it wasnt long ago that Spain was partner#3 in the Global War on Terror. Aznar was a trusted friend of W, Spanish troops were in combat alongside US and British soldiers. I just have a hard time believeing that such a devout country has gone so far to the left in sch a short time. This is a country who is no stanger to terrorism, but their capitultion after 3-11 rivaled that of Vichy..What the heck happened there? Were there really THAT many leftists just below the surface in Spain?

[Protagoras]

This shouldn't be so difficult.

It's not difficult at all.

1. Man's law never supersedes God's law; neither does the Church.

See? It's not hard.

2. Homosexuality is a sin;

Right

issuing marriage licenses to homosexuals is not.

Oops,,,Anything which separates you from God is a sin. State sanctioned sin does that, and no one has an obligation to abet that. They also have no obligation to quit their jobs for that reason.

They should be aware that the godless may fire them. That's OK, people need to understand and take responsibility for their actions. They are certain to be persecuted for being Christians, Jesus told us so. Don't obey the godless, and maybe get fired. If all Christians did that, they would have to fire most of their employees. Oh well, then they take the consequences I guess.

3. However, if you conscience forbids you to issue marriage licenses to homosexuals, then you should find another job.

Wrongo, you should refuse to issue them and let the chips fall where they may. Let the godless worry about the consequences.

You may wish to get involved in protests or legislative efforts to change the law.

No problem. And those who think like you, those meek in their faith, may wish to act more meekly.

But others are under no obligation to do so, and certainly not because people like you misinterpret scripture.

[Protagoras]

To: Campion
No, really you're claiming that your interpretation of the Bible is the ultimate authority.
That sounds familar.


54 posted on 04/22/2005 2:42:03 PM CDT by Protagoras (Christ is risen.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

"..You represent the Catholic Church doctrine as authoritative.."

It is.

I knew someone would make my point.

[Cronos]

It is fit and proper for religious authorities to speak out on sin; however, religious advocacy of civil disobedience is not Biblical.

The Roman Empire under Trajan and Hadrian said that all citizens should worship the Emperor. The Christians didn't. I guess that form of 'religious advocacy of civil disobedience' was also not Biblical....

[Cronos]

This is not quite the same. I get what you're trying to say -- separation of Church and state. But, when the state asks you to do what you CANNOT do, that is something else. IF the state (say China) mandates that a doctor MUST perform abortions for parents with more than 1 kid, then is that to be resisted or not?

[little jeremiah]

Homosexual Agenda Ping. Must repeat some of the above:

He said Roman Catholic officials should be prepared to lose their jobs rather than co-operate with the law.

He said every profession linked with implementing homosexual marriages should oppose it, even if it meant losing their jobs.

The cardinal insisted that just because something was made law it did not make it right.

Let me know if you want on/off this pinglist.

GREAT GOOD NEWS!

[little jeremiah]

I disagree. Sometimes the civil authority is so egregiously evil or sinful that it by co-operating with the sin/evil one joins in their wickedness.

BTW, it was perfectly lawful and legal to discriminate against and then exterminate Jews and other "undesirables" in Germany during the Third Reich. Do you think Jesus or his disciples would have said that people should go along with those crimes?

Of course you don't.

[X. OTerica]

It seems like it would be difficult to misinterpret the following Scriptures:

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. [Romans 13:1-2]

Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work [Titus 3:1]

On this issue, the Life Application Bible notes state: “As Christians, our first allegiance is to Jesus as Lord, but we must obey our government and its leaders as well. Christians are not above the law. Obeying the civil law is only the beginning of our Christian responsibility; we must do what we can to be good citizens. In a democracy, this means participation and willingness to serve.”

Our allegiance to Jesus is also clear in Scripture, for example:

But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men." [Acts 5:29]

So, it seems self-evident, not subject to “interpretation”, that:

1. God’s law trumps man’s law.
2. When there is no conflict with God’s law, Christians must comply with man’s law.

Romans 13:6 also introduces the issue of conscience. In this specific thread, “the Church was making an urgent call for freedom of conscience for Roman Catholics”, which seems totally consistent with Scripture.

However, Cardinal Lopez Trujillo also said the Church was “appealing to them to resist the law.” This is the more problematic part. I certainly believe that Catholics (and all Christians for that matter) should follow their conscience; this likely means refusing to comply with the law (and accepting the consequences) or changing jobs, or working to change the law, or some combination.

The point is that matters of conscience are an individual decision made by persons of faith. For the Church to appeal to Catholics to obey their conscience is one thing; to encourage them to resist the legally constituted authority is quite another, unless the case can be clearly made that (in this instance) issuing marriage licenses to homosexuals is, in fact, against God's law.

As regards the strength of my own faith, that’s between me and my Lord Jesus. However, you might want to consider that “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.” {Matthew 5:5]

[X. OTerica]

Of course not.

God’s law trumps man’s law. However, when there is no conflict with God’s law, Christians must comply with man’s law.

Post #93 (above) addresses this in more detail (sorry - I should have added you to the reply list).

[the invisib1e hand]

I don't doubt Pope Benedict's sentiments, but the title is very misleading. This came from the cardinal, not the Pope.

AP, the irrevent spinners of all things Vatican, sold this as 'the Pope's first difficult test' or some such overdramtized, ankle-biting trial balloon.

[Protagoras]

1. God’s law trumps man’s law. 2. When there is no conflict with God’s law, Christians must comply with man’s law.

I told you it was easy.

You read it that we must murder on command of evil rulers because they were elected by men or seized power and you think that is God's will.
All other people with common sense read it the other way. You may, indeed must, disobey.

Oh well, happy obedience to tyrants and murders!!! Carry on.

[X. OTerica]

And here I thought we were discussing homosexual marriage licenses; how did murder come up?

In any event, the sixth commandment is “Thou shalt not murder.” Sounds like God’s law to me.

I admire your use of the “strawman” technique to attribute a position to me that I do not espouse, then to attempt to invalidate my actual position by disproving the strawman. Even a cursory review of this thread will demonstrate that I never sanctioned murder.

It’s an old oratory technique to change the subject when you can’t argue the original premise. However, I believe that FReepers are supposed to stay on topic. The original topic was the Church’s response to a Spanish law regarding homosexual marriage licenses, not murder.

In summary: murder - bad; homosexuality - bad; homosexual marriage licenses - bad; Church admonition to resist the law - debatable; rational debate - good!