[adiaireton8]

The doctrine that Mary was without sin at conception goes way back, long before the 1800s. The Greek fathers are much more explicit than the Latin fathers. She is by many fathers compared to Eve (prior to the Fall, immaculate and without sin, a tabernacle for the Christ). Pius IX didn't just pull this out of the blue. He made explicit what had been implicit. We already knew that the prophet Jeremiah and John the Baptist were sanctified in the womb. Mary's sanctification had to be greater than that of John the Baptist, for her role as theotokos was greater.

Your arguement about Mary needing to be sinless sounds like the human mind struggling to understand God; placing limits on God. This same type of reasoning resulting in Arian Heresy. "Sounds like" and "same type" are arguments from analogy, one of the weakest sort of arguments there are. Falsehood of the most convincing sort often "sounds like" certain truths; that's the only way the falsehood can be convincing. The only way to refute a claim is to show that it is false. Any true claim or sound argument can be said to "sound like" some false claim or unsound argument. So, "sounds like" proves nothing.

Go read Newman's An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine. Every Protestant should read that book.

-A8

[pro610]

This thread seems to have brought out the best and the worst regarding salvation.
Look at the story of the good thief on the cross next to Jesus.I don,t think he belonged to any religious organization. He was saved because he recognized that Jesus was the savior,He was spiritually Born again at that moment.
Of course we should not live our life like the thief did but no one should ever fight about Salvation.
The first will be last and the last will be first,Im sure Jesus said that for a reason.
Most important is that we are Spiritually Born Again in Christ Jesus.Then the Holy Spirit will work in our lives.

[Tao Yin]

Mary's sanctification had to be greater than that of John the Baptist, for her role as theotokos was greater.

Human reason again. God is not limited by our intellect. You've shown nothing apostolic. But I'll check out the book.

[Elsie]

 Mary's sanctification had to be greater than that of John the Baptist, for her role as theotokos was greater.

 

 

OH???

 

 

NIV Luke 7:28
   I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."