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To: adiaireton8
Nice quick dismissal of my sources. Because you say...

I imagine you prefer Latin to the original Greek as well, and that any mention I might make concerning petros, petras, and other stuff like maybe the rock there is Jesus Christ will also be equally dismissed.

Last call on my part, for this one anyway - here's me thinking about...what that means, Christ giving to Peter the keys of the kingdom of heaven. The keys - I'm thinking the keys are for the binding and loosing of "whatsoever" in earth and heaven, as in the opening and closing locks or doors (to complete the image given in Mt. 16:19). True, those were given to Peter first. Yet, Christ repeats Himself in Mt. 18:18. In this section of scripture He speaks to the entire church - giving them the same authority and ability.

And the churches at Antioch, and Ephesus, and Corinth, and Thessalonica, and all the others, equally share that authority. And that authority is passed down to us today. One of the points you ignore is the fact that each church in Revelation receives it's own letter and that before the New Testament is complete, we see a plurality of equal, scriptural, local, and visible, Spirit led, New Testament assemblies. Just think about what that means, along with the early history of "the" church. Eventually it will sink in.

It's been real, it's been fun. Heck, at times it's even been real fun. But I feel like we're at the point of diminishing returns so, for now, thanks for the civility.
1,447 posted on 04/26/2005 8:16:53 PM PDT by AD from SpringBay (We have the government we allow and deserve.)
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To: AD from SpringBay
True, those were given to Peter first.
 
Did He?????
 
 
One has to answer the YOU question posed here to determine that............


 


NIV Matthew 16:13-23

 
When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?" 
 
They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."  
 
"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" 

Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 

Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.  And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 

I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be  bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." 
Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ. 

From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
 

Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!" 

 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

 
Since there is no 'real' key; but merely a 'virtual' one (or set: the Scripture says, "KEYS"  or maybe an identical one to each disciple) what shall we make of the fact that Jesus was talking to ALL the disciples here; and impetuous PETER jumps in with an answer, the question becomes:
 
"To whom is the
you spoken about refer?"
 
Is it ONLY to Peter; or is it to ALL of them?


1,450 posted on 04/27/2005 7:16:34 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: AD from SpringBay
Nice quick dismissal of my sources. Because you say...

I don't understand what you mean by "Because you say", but if you know the difference between primary and secondary sources, you will know why primary sources trump secondary sources.

I imagine you prefer Latin to the original Greek as well,

Not true, but I cannot stop you from thinking it if you choose to be led by your imagination and not by reason.

and that any mention I might make concerning petros, petras, and other stuff like maybe the rock there is Jesus Christ will also be equally dismissed.

You seem to be assuming that I am an unreasonable person, who is driven by dogma alone, and does not consider the evidence. Again, you are free to think what you want about me, but according to the principle of charity, you should think the best of your interlocutor. If you have good evidence and argumentation, it will withstand any challenge. If you don't have good evidence and argumentation, then your position could get refuted. But, either way, you would be benefitted, because you would have a better understanding of the truth.

True, those were given to Peter first. Yet, Christ repeats Himself in Mt. 18:18. In this section of scripture He speaks to the entire church - giving them the same authority and ability.

First, you are assuming that in Matt 18 He speaks to the entire Church. How can you justify that assumption? Second, you are assuming that the authority He gives to the Apostles (and only to the Apostles) in Matt 18 is identical to the keys He gave to Peter in Matt 16. How can you justify that assumption? Catholics believe that all the Apostles have the authority to bind and loose. But Catholics also recognize that Christ gave the keys to Peter, that Peter was the rock upon which He would build His Church, and that Peter was appointed by Christ as the chief or primary Apostle. (Amazingly, 'sola scriptura' people criticize Catholics for bringing in doctrine not contained in Scripture, and yet the 'sola scriptura' people want to speculate, and bring in extra-biblical theories, such that the keys are just the same authority He gave to the Apostles in Matt 18, or that there are twelve keys, and Christ gave one to each Apostle.)

And the churches at Antioch, and Ephesus, and Corinth, and Thessalonica, and all the others, equally share that authority.

How do you know? Asserting it does not make it so. You need to show evidence that this is the case, and refute the evidence supporting the other side.

One of the points you ignore is the fact that each church in Revelation receives it's own letter

This is fully compatible with Catholic belief.

and that before the New Testament is complete, we see a plurality of equal, scriptural, local, and visible, Spirit led, New Testament assemblies.

Where does it say that they are "equal"? Or are you importing that into Scripture?

It's been real, it's been fun. Heck, at times it's even been real fun. But I feel like we're at the point of diminishing returns

If you're only willing to go this far, then you can't expect to reach the bottom of the issue. I don't care whether it is fun or painful for me or you. The fact is, it is a very important issue, and one that is worth studying vigorously and diligently until we get to the truth.

-A8

1,454 posted on 04/27/2005 7:56:42 AM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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