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Another Gnostic. Building your entire theology of salvation on the thief on the cross. If you had studied the writings of the Church Fathers, you would see that your way of thinking is completely alien to them. They strongly rejected Gnosticism as a heresy. When Peter says, "baptism now saves you", you don't know what to do with this. On Pentecost when Peter says, "be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins", you don't know what to do with this, since in your view, we are saved by faith alone, and baptism *definitely* does not do anything to forgive our sins. When Ananias tells Saul to "Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins", this makes no sense to you, and so you turn it into a metaphor, since the notion of God working through matter is so repulsive to you. When John says, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit", you don't know what to do with this. When Jesus says, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you", you don't know what to make of this; it makes you want to throw up. All this earthy stuff makes you uncomfortable, sick; it is distasteful and disgusting, talking of water and blood and flesh saving us. Of course it makes you uncomfortable; you are a Gnostic. You can't make sense of the passage, "There is no rest day or night ... for anyone who receives the mark of his name." How can receiving a mark damn a person, since as long as they have faith in Christ, they are saved? It does not make any sense to you that Mark adds baptism as a condition to being saved. (Mark 16:16) You don't know what to make of "we were all baptized into one body", since in your view we were all made into one body by faith alone. Baptism is some worthless symbolic thing that is completely unnecessary and superfluous in your theology. There is no need for it. Faith alone is necessary. Oh, perhaps there is some pedagogical value in baptism, since it reminds us of Christ's death, or how our sins have been washed away. But baptism itself doesn't actually *save* us, heaven forbid! Matter doesn't save us; salvation is wholly spiritual, and hence only spiritual things save us, i.e. faith alone. We don't need a Church. We don't need the sacraments. We just need to believe. That's Gnosticism. All these passages don't make any sense to you.

You have the thief on the cross, and that trumps everything else so suit your Gnosic fancies. Go study the Fathers, and I guarantee you that you will see how much of Gnostic you presently are. (I was in your shoes at one time too, and I'm telling you this only because I wish someone had been straight with me. It would have saved me a lot of trouble.)

-A8

Nice labeling and thanks for focusing on only one point I made. You didn't defend the catechism's claim that I thought we were discussing. Anyway, thanks for bringing up all the baptisms. You'll note everyone who is baptised in the Bible first believed. I wonder why that is? Could it be that belief is supposed to come before baptism?

I mentioned the thief on the cross as a final example as to why you don't need to belong to the Catholic Church in order to be in heaven. This contradicts the particular catechism I thought we were discussing. I guess you don't address that because you don't know what to do with it.

Let's see if I can figure out what to do with all your wonderful examples. I Peter 3:21 (am guessing this is what you are referring to) - after Peter writes, "...baptism does also now save us..." he then explains that it is the answer of a good conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. So here I think the good conscience and the resurrection of Christ come first.

Then in Acts 2:38 - Peter does tell them to be baptised. But he first tells them to repent. I'm thinking the repentances comes first.

In Acts 9:18, when Paul was baptised, this happens after He met Christ, received the Holy Spirit, and had the scales fall from his eyes. Once again, some powerful events of faith and belief happen before baptism.

I couldn't find the John quote. My apologies. Since I can't find it, I'll concur - I don't know what to do with it.

In John 3:3, what I think is your best example - Jesus does indeed tell Nicodemus that unless a man is born of water and the spirit he cannot see the Kingdom of God. After some elaboration on the part of Jesus, Nicodemus reveals himself to not quite understand (like myself at times). So Jesus continues to elaborate. If you read all the way down to John 3:15 you hear the Savior say - that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. So at the very least, baptism must have a strong element of belief in the Savior.

The turning of the unleavened bread into the literal Body of Christ - I'm wondering, how can you tell when Jesus is using literal vs. figurative language? For example, are there real keys that Jesus gave to Peter or are those figurative? And since we're chasing rabbits can you show me where Christ gives the ability to understand scripture to only the apostles?

Mark 16:16 - Mark does put belief first, and adds it again at the end of that verse...he that believes not shall be damned. There's that belief element again. What will you do with this?

We were all baptized into one body - that would be the body of Christ? Did I get that one right? Or are you thinking here it's talking about the Catholic church?

Just to clarify a few other things and take some of your words out of my mouth - baptism is definitely not worthless. I highly recommend it to all the believers out there. The resurrection of Jesus saves us, and that was a very real event. You use the label Gnostic rather loosely since the original Gnostics believed that Jesus was somehow less than human and more spiritual than fleshly. You might want to brush up on your church history. We do need a church. We do need to do what Jesus taught (though I don't recall Him using any sacraments). And the passages you cited do make sense to me.

By grace are we saved through faith. Do you know what to do with that? Does the thief on the cross make any sense to you? He is just one more example of faith before baptism, but he is definitely not my entire theology.