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To: muawiyah
"Patton simply does not stand up against Zhukov by any measure."

I beg to differ Zhukov was cut from very Russian cloth, and did everything through brute force. The only reason he, or any other Russian general had success, was through sheer force of numbers. As an example, one of Zuhkov's great successes, Operation Saturn, succeeded like it did because not only were the German's in Stalingrad bled white, the German reserves were used up soundly defeating Operations Mars and Uranus. David Glantz postulates, quite convincingly, that Saturn was actually an axillary attack, in a three pronged offensive (Mars, Saturn and Uranus), with the goal of destroying Army group Center, not Army Group South. His drive to Berlin was one of brute strength, showing very little imagination, IMO, as well.

I will give him his dues, he was a master coordinator of material and men. The numbers he dealt with are astonishing. It's simply a shame that so many men, and so much material was wasted by ham-fisted tactics. Also, in the defense, he was masterful in luring his opponents into well laid out killing fields. He did it to the Japanese in Manchuria, and the Germans at Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad and Kursk. Of course, all were accomplished by sacrificing vast amounts of men and material.

There are reasons why Soviets loses were so heavy, and the main one was because of the willingness of generals like Zhukov to throw away the lives of his men, in lieu of tactics.

75 posted on 04/13/2005 8:20:29 PM PDT by Turbo Pig (...to close with and destroy the enemy...)
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To: Turbo Pig
While Seelow wasn't his finest hour and Glantz does make some interesting points about Army Group Center, Zhukov starving off defeat and then achieving the greatest victory, in the greatest war in history does put Zhuvkov in a different league from Patton.

Tactically you maybe correct about Zhukov, but Operationally and Strategically can you name anyone better? In the end, all the 'Great' German generals lost (and during the Cold War, the Germans got away with just saying it was all Hitler's fault). Glantz's book on Kursk sheds new light on that subject. Strategically the Soviets danced circles around the Germans and Zhukov won.
86 posted on 04/13/2005 9:08:22 PM PDT by Yasotay
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To: Turbo Pig

Zhukov did what was necessary. Did you ever try to fight a war in a country without real roads?


113 posted on 04/14/2005 8:50:07 AM PDT by muawiyah
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