[Yasotay]

While Seelow wasn't his finest hour and Glantz does make some interesting points about Army Group Center, Zhukov starving off defeat and then achieving the greatest victory, in the greatest war in history does put Zhuvkov in a different league from Patton.

Tactically you maybe correct about Zhukov, but Operationally and Strategically can you name anyone better? In the end, all the 'Great' German generals lost (and during the Cold War, the Germans got away with just saying it was all Hitler's fault). Glantz's book on Kursk sheds new light on that subject. Strategically the Soviets danced circles around the Germans and Zhukov won.

[PzLdr]

Try Erich von Manstein, author of the plan that brought France to its knees in six weeks, author of the counter stroke at Kursk in early 1943 that stopped the post Stalingrad Soviet offensive. Try Eisenhower who planned the greatest amphibious invasion of modern times (Overlord). Try Yamashita, who took Singapore in six weeks. Try Rommel, whose 1942 offensive was a tactical and strategic jewel. For defense, try Kesselring in Italy.

Zhukov's two greatest claims to fame are Stalingrad, and the destruction of Army Group Center in 1944. He showed a good strategic sense, but he wasn't in Manstein's class.

[Turbo Pig]

Strategically the Soviets danced circles around the Germans and Zhukov won.

I'll grant you that, with the assertation that the reason was because there were too many Nazi functionaries (read Hitler toadies) in important positions. This led to German generals, men who knew better, backing, or making decisions that they knew were wrong. While it's easy for them to point the finger at Hitler, the blame does ultimately lay at their feet.

Without Hitler's interference in every aspect; from decisions on armament priorities to troop movements, AND help from the Western Allies to the Soviets, I firmly believe that we see the Soviet defeat in 1942. Before any argument starts, I do think that it would not, and could not have happened with the chain of events that started in the late part of 1940(prior to Barbarossa even kicking off). IMO, the decisions that doomed the Germans in the East were made then and in the early to mid part of 1941.