Posted on 04/13/2005 3:32:48 PM PDT by Conservative Firster
WASHINGTON, April 12 - Senator Bill Frist, the majority leader, said on Tuesday that he was discouraging efforts to incorporate immigration and border security measures into the Senate version of a supplemental military spending bill, which would set the stage for showdowns among Congressional Republicans over immigration later this year.
Meeting with reporters, Dr. Frist, of Tennessee, said, "I am encouraging my colleagues to defer, to postpone discussions of immigration and to postpone that debate."
He said, however, that he was still negotiating with senators who seek to add immigration provisions to the military spending bill.
The House version of the bill includes provisions to block illegal immigrants from obtaining standard driver's licenses, to make it easier to reject requests for asylum and to override environmental rules blocking construction of a barrier along California's border with Mexico.
Senators from each party seek to add amendments that would make it easier for employers to hire more foreign workers.
The immigration debate reveals a fault line in the Republican Party, pitting cultural conservatives hostile to illegal immigrants against business groups that seek foreign laborers. President Bush has declared his support for a guest-worker program that would be open to currently illegal immigrants.
On Tuesday, Dr. Frist called immigration "a huge issue, an issue that we have to address this year, that the president put a proposal on the table last year - legislatively, we did not address it - I believe we have to address this year."
House Republicans, however, said that negotiators in a conference last year promised that the provisions would be included in some "must-pass" legislation, like the supplemental military spending bill. In negotiations with the Senate, House Republicans added, they were determined to keep the provisions in the final version of the bill.
Senate Democrats want to offer a number of amendments seeking to loosen immigration restrictions or expand foreign-workers programs. Dr. Frist and Senator Harry Reid of Nevada, the Democratic leader, were in talks on Tuesday night about whether to limit the number of immigration amendments to a handful, with some Democrats seeking assurances that the final bill would not include the House's immigration restrictions, aides said.
Senator Judd Gregg, Republican of New Hampshire, and Senator Barbara A. Mikulski, Democrat of Maryland, said they planned to offer an amendment that would make more visas available for temporary seasonal workers, which they said would be needed by the hotel and fishing industries this summer.
Meanwhile, two Republican senators, John Cornyn of Texas and Jon Kyl of Arizona, advocating the tightening of border security along the lines of the House measures, said they also favored deferring the immigration debate in the Senate and enacting comprehensive measures that would also include some form of Mr. Bush's guest-worker program.
Grover Norquist, president of Americans for Tax Reform and a conservative strategist working with the White House on its guest-worker proposal, predicted that each side would ultimately succeed only through comprehensive legislation that tightens border security and at the same time adds foreign workers to the labor pool. "Immigration reform and border security are not competitors; they are the same thing," he said.
He said he believed that the House Republican opponents of the guest-worker program would "get boxed out by a bipartisan coalition," and that Mr. Bush could achieve his guest-worker program mostly through strong Democratic support.
Yes Reagan was not opposed to Free Trade, but neither would he tolerate the kind of antics being engaged in by China and other coutries. His record was clear on that front.
"In many ways, Bush is following the script of another Republican free trader, Ronald Reagan. The ever-optimistic Reagan loved to extol the virtues of free trade as he made his Cold War pitch for the capitalist way. But he also knew how to play the role of tough guy. Often working in concert with two powerful senators -- Democrat Lloyd Bentsen of Texas and Republican John Danforth of Missouri -- Reagan used the leverage available to him to push Japan and Europe to lower barriers to American goods and services. And he did it all without provoking anti-American retaliation."
"The cowboy act on trade paid off for Reagan. Not only did he win concessions from the Japanese but he also won the loyalty of millions of blue-collar voters, dubbed "Reagan Democrats," many of whom for the first time saw the GOP as the party of the working class."
It is about creating an interdependent world where agression and conflict cost more than they are worth.
No one's arguing against that, least not me. You called my post and probably scores of others "bizarre" because as conservatives many of us believe in fair trade. It's been simply pointed out to you that is consistent with how the Gipper felt and how Pat Buchanan and millions of other conservatives feel about the issue today.
And it's the same deal with illegal immigration. You can label it if you like... populism or whatever it doesn't matter.
Uh, I *dont* support the Bush worker program... imho, it shouldnt be a 'no caps' program. I would only support a *limited* guest worker program, just as H1-B today is limited. Then again, it's unlimited because they really have no idea how many ofthe 10+ million illegal alien workers would want to sign up.
but the fact is, you are paying for those costs *today* anyway, because the Govt throws itself out to absorb these costs. Illegals show up at hospitals and get care; illegal immigrants' children are a substantial fraction of the kids in *public school in Texas and California*... and Govt doesnt stop it. Taxpayers pay the bill, today.
And *of course* we incarcerate illegal immigrants who break the (other) laws we have.
The Govt is also paying for such costs for citizens and legal immigrants every day.
Guest worker doesnt add costs (that we are already paying for illegals) so much as channel the 'pressure to immigrate' in a particular way, towards legal immigration that is intended to discourage permanent residency. That's partly a good idea and partly wishful thinking. The 'guest workers' always stay, so long as the job is still there, but at least this is better than Dem-style blanket amnesty, which allows effectively migration of welfare dependents ... the Bush program is tied only to people who get *jobs*, which means they are more likely to be contributors and less likely to be net drains on societal costs.
Anything that allows some *limited* legal immigration and stops illegal immigration is the right recipe imho.
For you, Buchanan(and Tancredo) are Demi-Gods. For most, he is a demagogue. This is proven by the fact that he recieved less than 1% of the 2000 vote. This is why the group that you are a member of is often referred to as the "One Percenters".
Legal immigration is fine, in reason. A massive guest worker program that just changes the status of illegals to legal won't do anything to stop the huge drain in social costs. The minimum wage guests will still be taking billions more out of the system than they put in by way of taxes.
Since politicians appear committed to this idea the best we can hope for is what Delay is pushing: guest workers without their families and strict enforcement.
The problem is we heard the enforcement part before so I really don't expect much is going to change anytime soon as far as this flood goes.
Try as you might, no one is lumping Reagan and Buchanan together other than agreement on some issues, fair trade being one of them.
It's easy to call people names like demogogue, we're all guilty of it. But my hunch is any politician who favors tough enforcement both at the border and in the interior is a demogogue to you. I got news, that label would fit 80% of the population as well who've had enough of open borders.
I suppose that it is remotely possible that the smallest group could finesse a program thru Congress, but it is most likely that a compromise bill with broad support is the one.
You also ignore the distinct possibilty that there is a Congressional Charade in process. This charade allows all house republicans to appear tough and in the end, only a few republicans in the senate and those republicans on the conference committe catch any blame.
How does a guest worker program close the border? You like so many want to pretend history doesn't exist and we have nothing to go by when making policy.
Are you aware in 1990 Bush and Ted Kennedy teamed up to double legal immigration quotas using the argument that would cut down on illegal immigration by providing more visas? Now be honest Ben, did it work? I wasn't fooled then and I'm not fooled now.
No in the end I suspect we may or may not get something but any claim it will "choke off" illegal immigration will be proven false as it has countless times in the past.
So, when you mention that Kennedy And Bush did somthing in regard to visas back in 1990, I don't know what you are talking about because visa is a word that means different things depending on how it is used. It may be germaine, but I think it is better to discuss the issue at hand.
For example:
A compromise bill would allow X number of workers in on temporary work visas. It would also establish a plateau/method that allows previously temporary work visa holders to acquire permenant visas. It also establishes quotas.
In contrast, Bush/Cornyn would allow X number of workers in on temporary work visas and no-one gets a permenant visa. It also establishes quotas.
All temp work visas have quotas that can be changed depending the need. Tech worker visas were lowered during the recession and will be soon be raised as the economy expands. When the ag worker visa and non-ag worker visa get reformed, they too will be adjustable to needs.
We have had these ag and non-ag visas for many, many years. As Bush said, they are broken and need to be fixed. No doubt they worked well in the beginning but the dems snarled them up to benefit the unions. Had these work visas been allowed to change thru time to satisfy our need of guest workers, there would be very few illegals here.
Well that was the argument the mass immigrationists gave back then, more legal visas would cut down on illegal entries. Kennedy's mind wasn't on the Mexicans so much but rather the illegal Irish population. Regardless illegal immigration exploded despite what was claimed would happen.
There's also a history of guest worker programs for Mexicans dating back to the 1940s and 50s. During that period millions entered illegally despite the legal opportunities. It wasn't until Eisenhower and Congress put their foot down and actually enforced the law that it stopped.
History has proven time and again it's wishful thinking to believe guest worker programs or increased visas will stop the invasion. Only enforcement of the law does that, something which hasn't occurred in the last 15 years.
Previously you ranted about somthing that Bush and Kennedy did with visas. Back it up with some facts. Some references
Now its braceros. You don't know when or why it started--when or why it ended. You don't know enough about it to link Operation Wetback to Maquilladoras or to link Maquilladoras to illegals.Back it up with some facts. Some refernces.
I explained to/corrected you guest worker reforms. You can read AgJobs or Cornyn's bill to confirm.
Like all the hate mexican crowd, your objective is to throw mis-info around. Anyone who wants to devote the time can shoot you down. I have done it numerous times on this thread.
The point being, Congress has the facts, and they will do what they need to do---reform the guest worker programs.
You may not like, but that is the way it is.
No it's not misinfo. That's coming from you with your constant ridiculous claims a guest worker program will stop illegal immigration, it will not. They'll keep coming and coming until the laws of this country are actually enforced. You're not fooling anyone, least not me. You want open borders and you'll take it anyway you can get it.
Point me to one post where you have "shot me down" lol. I'll be patiently waiting for the link. It obviously bothers you that so few support open borders and guest worker programs. You can't win on facts so it always resorts to insults. Typical leftist behavior.
Show me one member of Congress that doesn't support a guest worker program.
Ben, you're not following immigration obviously, I've been doing it for years. It was Ted Kennedy in 1990 who pushed for the diversity visa lottery program to assist more Irish and others who might want to immigrate to the country. If you don't believe me tough, look it up through google.
Speaking of running the mouth, since you believe a guest worker program will somehow magically stop illegal immigration please show me one instance where this has actually occurred. I'll be waiting patiently for your response.
Ben, you're not following immigration obviously, I've been doing it for years. It was Ted Kennedy in 1990 who pushed for the diversity visa lottery program to assist more Irish and others who might want to immigrate to the country. If you don't believe me tough, look it up through google.
Speaking of running the mouth, since you believe a guest worker program will somehow magically stop illegal immigration please show me one instance where this has actually occurred. I'll be waiting patiently for your response.
The GOP must be used to thoroughly demolish the Democrats. That's right, use the GOP to that end. Two can play the "using" game.The GOP and its party members do indeed have that strength as long as we on the Right do not fracture and defeat ourselves.
The "other" party will then come from the eventual splitting of the GOP.
Excellent post. I agree with you that a new party will become viable soon. The American political landscape is ripe for change.
The border issue just highlights the need for a new party.
We have the H2B non-agworker visa that allows 68,000 temp workers per year. Lets estimate the number of illegals whose work would be classified under the H2B at 8 million.
Ag worker visas? again a low quota and 2 million illegals.
These visas quotas are set so low, they are essentially not a guest worker program.As a result we have 10 million illegals. Yet you say the key is to have no work visas
On the other hand, what about the other temp worker visas that are working:
Tech worker Visas- no illegals
Nurse Visas-no illegals
Crew worker Visas-no illegals
There are also many other work visas(such as professors,salesmen,etc) working well without illegals
You would think that if an illegal will come for $5.15/hr, an illegal would come for 40 thou/year?
According to your thoery, we need to get rid of the programs that are working.
Lets face it. You don't want mexicans here whether they are legal or not.
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