Posted on 04/12/2005 4:46:09 PM PDT by SJackson
German prosecutors have provoked outrage by ruling that the 1945 RAF bombing of Dresden can legally be termed a "holocaust".
The decision follows the refusal by the Hamburg public prosecutor's office to press charges against a Right-wing politician who compared the bombing raids to "the extermination of the Jews".
German law forbids the denial or playing down of the Holocaust as an incitement to hatred.
So delicate is the subject of the slaughter of Jews under Hitler that any use of the word "holocaust", or comparison with it, faces intense scrutiny and sometimes legal action.
But prosecutors have declined to pursue further the case of Udo Voigt, the chairman of the far-Right NPD, who likened the RAF's raids to the Nazis' "final solution".
Rudigger Bagger, a spokesman for the Hamburg public prosecutor, said the decision took into account only the criminal, not the moral, aspects of the case.
But he cited as a legal precedent a ruling by the federal constitutional court that favoured free speech in political exchanges, if defamation was not the prime aim of the argument.
Holger Apfel, the NPD's leader in the Saxon regional parliament, caused a scandal in January when he shouted down a commemoration of the Dresden bombing, prompting many others to walk out in disgust.
His outburst was covered by parliamentary privilege but Mr Voigt applauded and repeated the statements elsewhere.
Paul Spiegel, the president of the Central Council of Jews in Germany, criticised the decision by prosecutors not to take action. He said the statements were incitement and allowing them to stand opened the door to further such comments.
"Morally, I have no understanding of this," he said. "One can ban such remarks if you use the law consistently. It is questionable whether statements that are clearly incitement come under freedom of expression."
Although the NPD is despised by other parties, German politicians reluctantly accepted the ruling.
Dieter Wiefelspüetz, the interior spokesman for the Social Democrat Party described the phrase "holocaust" in the context of Dresden as an "exploitation of the victims". But he supported the decision not to prosecute.
Attitudes towards the Allied bombing campaign, which killed hundreds of thousands of civilians, are changing. Estimates of the death toll in Dresden in February 1945 hover at about 35,000. All the same, some historians claim that as many as 500,000 people were killed in the raids.
Strictly speaking, the word "holocaust," which comes from the ancient Greek for "burnt", might seem apt for Dresden, much of it immolated by the fires started by the RAF's incendiary bombs.
But its primary meaning is now so closely linked to the Nazis' treatment of the Jews that such etymology appears to be in bad taste.
After the war research showed that the attack convinced many Germans that they had to win the war or we would kill them all.
Godwin's Law is invoked, LiW. You lose.
Yeah,Right!
It's a work of fiction -- not fact. It was never intended to be factual. Do you understand what a fictional novel is?
https://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/PopTopics/dresden.htm
It's conclusions:
That's the stupidist thing I've ever read. Of course they are still dying in Hiroshima and Nagasaki -- they are not immortal. It was 60 years ago. Most people dying there are in their 70s and 80s -- the normal age at which people die. You can't seriously claim that someone dying 60 years later after living to be 70 or 80 years old is dying from the effect of the bombs. It's just old age.
Goebbels asked for "Total War," he got it!!!
Yes we bombed Dresden, but we also saved the Germans during the Berlin Airlift (at a cost of 31 US servicemen), and we built up Germany with the Marshall Plan.
"pagans and artists and into the occult"---
yes, good point, and I would like to read a study
that went into this IN DEPTH, and examined the weirdly
eclectic foundations of the mopst complete production of evil in the 20th century.
When it comes to the ancient shrines in Iraq, they are among the world's oldest still-standing buildings.
You can judge it however you were. Then, too, you weren't there.
You can judge it however you wish. Then, too, you weren't there.
Notice that this report says "the Russians wanted it done". And, Bomber Harris, in the same manner as John McCloy, did his master's bidding.
In their society, given their share of the genome, folks live longer than the 3 score and 10 granted to the inhabitants of the Fertile Crescent.
So, do not use Western standards on their life expectancies to evaluate the condition.
You didn't go to the link and read it did you? Here's what it said:
40. The major significance of the Dresden bombings lay in the fact that they were among several immediate and highly successful air actions made in response to the specific Russian request, given by General Antonov at the ARGONAUT Conference, less than two weeks earlier, for Allied air support of the Russian offensive on the Eastern Front. Had the German communications centers leading to that front--among which Dresden was uniquely important--not been successfully attacked by Allied strategic air forces, there can be little doubt that the course of the European war might have been considerably prolonged.90 At the time of the Dresden bombings, Marshal Koniev’s armies were less than seventy miles east of Dresden and by virtue of their extended positions highly vulnerable to German counterattack, provided the Germans could pass reinforcements through Dresden.91 With communications through Dresden made impossible as a consequence of the Allied bombings, the Russian salient in that area was rendered safe throughout the ensuing months of the war.92
Germans can whine till their cows come home.Thank you for post. Younger generations need reminders.They started the war and they killed MILLIONS!!! I WROTE MILLIONS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE IN THEIR DEATH CAMPS...PLUS THEY KILLED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF CIVILIANS IN LONDON, COVENTRY AND ALL THROUGHOUT EUROPE WITH THEIR AIR FORCE.
Germany was a major aggressor and villian of a nation, filled with people who thought they were "superior beings". People who followed Hitler into hell... no doubt.
They did not even get half of what they did to others. Somebody had to put them so low to the ground that they would have to struggle just to get to curb level. Dresden was the picture of what Germans could expect for all of Germany if they did not quit fighting. Dresden showed Germans that they were NOT superior anybody.
I am old enough to remember WWII and all the grieving American families who lost menfolk who were killed fighting Germans and their pal, Japan. I remember my neighbor, a really kind guy. He was murdered by Germans at a prisoner of War camp. I still remember my father's friend who was mowed down on the beach at Normandy. I still remember the wails ands cries of their wives and mothers.
I will never forget Germany and its evil ways.
I HAVE ZERO SYMPATHY FOR THEM OR THEIR MURDEROUS NAZI POPULACE.
After Ike saw the death camps he asked... Are you still having trouble hating the nazis?
I often think they deserved at least ONE atomic bomb. They got a firebombed Dresden... they really deserved a whole lot WORSE!
Our professors discuss these "academic" issues in a sterile environment, several generations removed from the horror of WWII. They tell us to read Kurt Vonnegut for the "real story" behind the Dresden bombing, while minimizing the ill will that the German people showed when they elected and supported Hitler.
And of course, some professors claim that the majority of Germans never voted for the Nazi Party, but they forget to mention that that's very common in parliamentary elections. The bottom line is that the Nazi Party formed a majority coalition with other elected German parliament members; therefore, the majority of Germans did elected the Nazi government that had Hitler as its prime minister.
Severing communications usually doesn't require incineration of the civilian populace anywhere anytime, even with the primitive target acquisition gear available in WWII.
Anyway, what advantage was there in making it easier on the Russians?
Calling the bombing of Dresden a "holocaust" is the same thing as calling the placing of panties on the heads of prisoners at Abu Grahib "torture".
There is a real loss of perspective here.
Not 60 years later. No radiation-induced disease has a 60-year latency.
They were young children 70 years ago ~ infants even.
Of course they were. The only people still alive who were there have to be more than 60 years old and people more than 60 years old start dying of the effects of ageing, not from radiation they received 60 years ago.
In their society, given their share of the genome, folks live longer than the 3 score and 10 granted to the inhabitants of the Fertile Crescent.
That's a fairly racist statement, as not all Asians have a long life expectancy and the top of the list is dominated by Europeans. Indeed, the Japanese do not dominate the top position by very much. According to WHO, the life expectancy in Japan is 74.5 years. By comparison, in Australia it is 73.2 years; in France 73.1; in Sweden 73.0; and in Spain 72.8.
So, do not use Western standards on their life expectancies to evaluate the condition.
So now you are saying radiation is a good thing in that it is giving them a greater life expectancy than non-radiated Europeans? I don't follow. Let me get this straight. Japanese live longer than other people (because they were irradiated?) but any Japanese over the age of 60 who dies is dying because of radiation poisoning from 60 years ago?
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