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German ruling says Dresden was a holocaust
Telegraph ^ | 4-12-5 | Hannah Cleaver in Berlin

Posted on 04/12/2005 4:46:09 PM PDT by SJackson

German prosecutors have provoked outrage by ruling that the 1945 RAF bombing of Dresden can legally be termed a "holocaust".

The decision follows the refusal by the Hamburg public prosecutor's office to press charges against a Right-wing politician who compared the bombing raids to "the extermination of the Jews".

German law forbids the denial or playing down of the Holocaust as an incitement to hatred.

So delicate is the subject of the slaughter of Jews under Hitler that any use of the word "holocaust", or comparison with it, faces intense scrutiny and sometimes legal action.

But prosecutors have declined to pursue further the case of Udo Voigt, the chairman of the far-Right NPD, who likened the RAF's raids to the Nazis' "final solution".

Rudigger Bagger, a spokesman for the Hamburg public prosecutor, said the decision took into account only the criminal, not the moral, aspects of the case.

But he cited as a legal precedent a ruling by the federal constitutional court that favoured free speech in political exchanges, if defamation was not the prime aim of the argument.

Holger Apfel, the NPD's leader in the Saxon regional parliament, caused a scandal in January when he shouted down a commemoration of the Dresden bombing, prompting many others to walk out in disgust.

His outburst was covered by parliamentary privilege but Mr Voigt applauded and repeated the statements elsewhere.

Paul Spiegel, the president of the Central Council of Jews in Germany, criticised the decision by prosecutors not to take action. He said the statements were incitement and allowing them to stand opened the door to further such comments.

"Morally, I have no understanding of this," he said. "One can ban such remarks if you use the law consistently. It is questionable whether statements that are clearly incitement come under freedom of expression."

Although the NPD is despised by other parties, German politicians reluctantly accepted the ruling.

Dieter Wiefelspüetz, the interior spokesman for the Social Democrat Party described the phrase "holocaust" in the context of Dresden as an "exploitation of the victims". But he supported the decision not to prosecute.

Attitudes towards the Allied bombing campaign, which killed hundreds of thousands of civilians, are changing. Estimates of the death toll in Dresden in February 1945 hover at about 35,000. All the same, some historians claim that as many as 500,000 people were killed in the raids.

Strictly speaking, the word "holocaust," which comes from the ancient Greek for "burnt", might seem apt for Dresden, much of it immolated by the fires started by the RAF's incendiary bombs.

But its primary meaning is now so closely linked to the Nazis' treatment of the Jews that such etymology appears to be in bad taste.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: eurotrash
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To: pbrown

YOu should follow the thread back up the line from my comment ~ that would be much better than asking me an either/or question that has nothing to do with the issue being addressed.


141 posted on 04/12/2005 7:32:49 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: cicero's_son
It's pointless to minimize another group's suffering just because it doesn't rise to the level of your own.

It's just as pointless to trivialize another group's suffering by co-opting it for your own.

If you believe that RAF bombing runs on Germany were "morally equivalent" to the systematic gassing of millions of innocents, rounded up specifically because they were Jews, or Roma, or other "inferiors" then it's pointless to argue with you.

You trivialize evil by claiming that everything is evil.

142 posted on 04/12/2005 7:36:29 PM PDT by Alouette (If I owned Hell and I owned Brooklyn, I'd live in Hell and rent out Brooklyn.)
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To: cicero's_son
Dresden, Hamburg, etc. were overhyped at the time they happened. I think the Brits were "huffing". After WWII it took the Germans a very long time to figure out how many people had died.

The war ended up being so terrible for them that by the time they could get around to it the Allied propaganda claims had pretty much been accepted as truth.

The Japanese casualty and fatality information was much better, but the problem with Hiroshima and Nagasaki is that so many tens of thousands of people died from the effects of the bombs long after the end of the war. There are still people dieing!

143 posted on 04/12/2005 7:36:41 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: cicero's_son

Listen up you puppy... Some of us actually fought in wars. You know, shot up and even killed commies in Korea and Viet Nam. WHAT DID YOU DO IN THE WARS PUPPY???? WHINE???


144 posted on 04/12/2005 7:36:57 PM PDT by Lion in Winter (LIFE SPRINGS ETERNAL!!)
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To: Lion in Winter

Thank you. I have not one iota of sympathy for the Germans. They brought their deaths upon themselves by wanting to rule the world. We all finished what they started. Now they are crying about it.


145 posted on 04/12/2005 7:37:56 PM PDT by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: Alouette
Actually, everything in war is evil.

Never forget that.

Peace is much better, and war is only justified in self-defense.

146 posted on 04/12/2005 7:39:04 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: SJackson
[ German ruling says Dresden was a holocaust ]

Nah! that would be the entire Third Reich that was the Holocaust..
Dresden was merely branch of the organization..

147 posted on 04/12/2005 7:39:40 PM PDT by hosepipe (This Propaganda has been edited to include not a small amount of Hyperbole..)
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To: Lion in Winter
Bark, bark little doggy.

You are very fierce. LOL.

148 posted on 04/12/2005 7:39:45 PM PDT by cicero's_son
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To: pbrown
"Please. In war innocents die. That is the very nature of war... They got what they were giving."

Gee, that was Hitler's viewpoint too. In his view the Jew's got what they were giving. And hey, if a few innocent die - well that's war.

Tojo thought the same way. So did the 9-11 terrorists, who thought we "got we were giving."

If we go to war again, give me a call. I'll provide you with an airline ticket and handgun - you can over and shoot some little kids.
149 posted on 04/12/2005 7:39:45 PM PDT by rcocean (I just hope that stupid weird talking thing is killed. I can't stand that whatever it is...)
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To: pbrown
"Please. In war innocents die. That is the very nature of war... They got what they were giving."

Gee, that was Hitler's viewpoint too. In his view the Jew's got what they were giving. And hey, if a few innocent die - well that's war.

Tojo thought the same way. So did the 9-11 terrorists, who thought we "got we were giving."

If we go to war again, give me a call. I'll provide you with an airline ticket and handgun - you can over and shoot some little kids.
150 posted on 04/12/2005 7:39:45 PM PDT by rcocean (I just hope that stupid weird talking thing is killed. I can't stand that whatever it is...)
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To: pbrown

Virtually none of the Germans alive today voted for Hitler.


151 posted on 04/12/2005 7:39:52 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

You don't have to get snippy about it. Just tell me to leave you alone and I will.


152 posted on 04/12/2005 7:40:19 PM PDT by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: rcocean
Actually, Tojo didn't have that much command over the military as you might imagine. So if he did or didn't like lighting up civilians, it really didn't matter in the end ~ the Militarists did like to do that, and it was their voices that counted.

I've always thought it interesting that the Japanese managed to keep so many of the "forms" found in democratic government intact clear to the beidereind. Not a bit of it mattered though.

153 posted on 04/12/2005 7:42:32 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
everything in war is evil. Never forget that.

Peace is much better

Peace is not defined as the absence of war. Failure to recognize and destroy evil is to guarantee that evil will prevail. "Peace" is not always the better alternative.

154 posted on 04/12/2005 7:42:34 PM PDT by Alouette (If I owned Hell and I owned Brooklyn, I'd live in Hell and rent out Brooklyn.)
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To: muawiyah
And no more than 35% alive in 1945 did, either.

And of those who did, the vast majority had no idea what he would unleash on the world.

155 posted on 04/12/2005 7:42:41 PM PDT by cicero's_son
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To: pbrown

Not being snippi ~ just helping you keep on track so you can enjoy the debate without thinking somebody bit you in the a$$.


156 posted on 04/12/2005 7:43:49 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: jamesissmall218

Thanks for putting it into words.

It is dishonest to contend that the word "holocaust" should be allowed to apply to only one situation of one group of people. Unless, of course, we seriously believe that they are worth more than any other brand or group of people (in other words, a superior race).


157 posted on 04/12/2005 7:44:37 PM PDT by Spirited (God, Bless America)
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To: Alouette

It's a yin/yan sort of thing. War is defined by Peace.


158 posted on 04/12/2005 7:44:39 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

The last I looked, that was pretty much all the Soviets' doing, with a little acquiescence by Roosevelt. It was something that practically, he couldn't have done much about, in any case.

Did you have a point?


159 posted on 04/12/2005 7:47:28 PM PDT by FreedomPoster (Official Ruling Class Oligarch Oppressor)
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To: SJackson

When I first heard the term holocaust it referred to a big fire. Dresden was a holocaust.


160 posted on 04/12/2005 7:48:09 PM PDT by jimfree (Freep and ye shall find.)
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