Posted on 04/12/2005 2:43:56 PM PDT by ninenot
I think it was more like "it's time to take from the individuals to give it to society".
The fact remains that Democratic Strategists Issued a Memo on Loss of Catholics. Happy and true.
fyi...
Yea,
Well the GOP better prepare a memo on the loss of pro-lifers... Thanks to Jeb helping to show that the GOP isn't serious about stopping judicial activism..
"Good riddance??" Don't think you need us? You may soon find out how badly you do....
Somebody oughta ping Deacon sinkspur on that one.
IIRC, the emphatic noises came from a dusty little cattle-stop near Dallas.
He's on my pinglist."
Sorry. Just got to this. Seems you've already pinged the good Deacon.
At least for me, Deal Hudson doesn't cut squat--he didn't before OR after the 'revelations.'
Frankly, the teachings of the Church are pretty clear. In the instant case, GWB had baggage, but none could compare with the 'kill 'em all' prescription of Kerry.
I don't think there's an RC on all of FR who paid the least amount of attention to Hudson. When I read his columns, they were usually 'eye-candy.' Cute, but no substance.
Stanley was also commissioned by the Michigan and national Demonratic parties to find out what went wrong in Macomb County, Michigan (auto worker suburb of Detroit) between 1964 when it was the most Democratic county of size in suburbs to 1984 when it became the most Republican county of size in suburbs. You can read all about it in his book Middle Class Dreams (1986).
In short: if Stanley Greenberg says Clinton by 7, Gore -7, Kerry -14, take it to the bank. Stanley knows what he is talking about and his wife will be one of the Demonrats who will have the hardest time moving rightward on social issues. He may be a left-winger (and certainly is to the nth degree) but he is paid big bucks to determine the truth and render it to his Demonratic clients. Nobody does it better on their side. His daughter Anna is now poised to supplement his efforts in life and succeed him when he is gone.
Finally, if you insist on believing the conventional figures you have posted, even they show 5% increase between Bush's showing against Gore and his majority showing against Kerry in those four years. Gore presumably did not do as well in the two-party vote as Clinton did against Dole and Bush the Elder. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. There is substantial momentum either way and when you hear it from Stanley Greenberg in larger momentum, it is more meaningful than if it came from Gallup. Stanley is a LOT more cutting edge in his technologies. Also, don't forget that Kerry has modeled his political image on John F. Kennedy (not terribly well IMNSHO) and runs around fraudulently claiming Catholicism. If the GOP builds on what Dubya has begun, the Demonrats' funeral is in sight.
Stanley was also commissioned by the Michigan and national Demonratic parties to find out what went wrong in Macomb County, Michigan (auto worker suburb of Detroit) between 1964 when it was the most Democratic county of size in suburbs to 1984 when it became the most Republican county of size in suburbs. You can read all about it in his book Middle Class Dreams (1986).
In short: if Stanley Greenberg says Clinton by 7, Gore -7, Kerry -14, take it to the bank. Stanley knows what he is talking about and his wife will be one of the Demonrats who will have the hardest time moving rightward on social issues. He may be a left-winger (and certainly is to the nth degree) but he is paid big bucks to determine the truth and render it to his Demonratic clients. Nobody does it better on their side. His daughter Anna is now poised to supplement his efforts in life and succeed him when he is gone.
Finally, if you insist on believing the conventional figures you have posted, even they show 5% increase between Bush's showing against Gore and his majority showing against Kerry in those four years. Gore presumably did not do as well in the two-party vote as Clinton did against Dole and Bush the Elder. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. There is substantial momentum either way and when you hear it from Stanley Greenberg in larger momentum, it is more meaningful than if it came from Gallup. Stanley is a LOT more cutting edge in his technologies. Also, don't forget that Kerry has modeled his political image on John F. Kennedy (not terribly well IMNSHO) and runs around fraudulently claiming Catholicism. If the GOP builds on what Dubya has begun, the Demonrats' funeral is in sight.
Bush I was also a turkey as a candidate. He had double-crossed fiscal conservatives, never was solidly 'pro-life,' and ran out of vision as soon as the Army wiped Iraq.
Well, I am not going to get into whose stats are better - the stats I cited are commonly accepted, the ones you cited are dubious. I'll stick with my stats.
While I tend to agree that Jeb doesn't have the steel, uh, apparatus required to be the President, I haven't quite given up on GWB.
Methinks there's a bunch of strategizin' goin' on, theah...
He's been pinged.
The silence is deafening.
That being said, opinion polls show that a significant number of Catholics are cavalier about abortion.That I could agree with, but its significantly different than your earlier statement.
As for your thought that the polls include many self identified, nonpracticing Catholics, you are right - but they still self-identify as Catholics.I don’t care what they call themselves, doesn’t make it true. Names mean something, even today. If you claim to be Catholic while never setting foot in a Catholic Church (much less rejecting every single doctrinal aspect of the Church) you aren’t Catholic in the commonly understood sense.
I said that I think most Catholics are quietly pro-choice and I think that it true - the fact that they are not churchgoing is peripheral:How is it peripheral? I’m a Vegan, did you know that? (Never mind that I eat meat daily).
You simply can’t reject the core requirements of being a member of the Church and then claim its “peripheral.” Sunday Mass may be trivial to many denominations, but to Catholics it is a required thing, and its not, by any stretch, the only thing these types are rejecting.
CINOs do prove my point - you need to rely on dismissing them to get to your conclusion. I am counting them because they count themselves - anything less is silly: if you discounted people as 'real' Catholics by their opinions, then you get wildly skewed results.Not really. It is hardly silly or difficult to define the “Catholic” subset by those who attend Mass. It does not get into the sticky realm of gauging them by their opinions, and it has some basis in reality. It measures people who actually do something Catholic, and excludes those who do nothing Catholic. Accepting all who simply claim to be Catholic has no basis in reality. It is a false construct made the media in an attempt to pretend that Catholics still support democrats.
There is no fallacy: I am trying to see what self-identified Catholics think. You are using what they think to identify them as Catholic or not.Actually, I am using cold hard facts -- what they DO, as in attending Mass -- not what they think, though the two closely coincide in most cases.
YOU are actually using what they think. When the pollster calls them up and asks what religion they are, they THINK about it, and they THINK they are kind of Catholic, so that is the response.
Do you see that? The response to the pollster’s question is based on what they “think.” My criteria are based on whether or not they actually attend. It includes all who actually attend, regardless of what they think. Given that actual attendance is required for Catholicism, its appropriate.
Your approach discards Catholics with inconvenient opinions.No it doesn't. Many people I vehemently disagree with do attend Mass and are quite sincere in their beliefs, even ones that aren't convienient for me. More importantly, it has some basis in reality.
That doesn't tell us much, except how many Catholics with inconvenient opinions might exist.Yes it does. If a Mass going Catholic is still pro-abortion that can be measured, and obviously these people do exist.
patent
>>Methinks there's a bunch of strategizin' goin' on, theah...
Yea, the strategy is to roll the dice on getting the "right" nominee in office, and that's it.
That's a losing strategy. The unwillingness to confront the Judiciary cost Terri her life..
Do you really think they have a winning strategy to stop the culture of death? I don't...
If the Dems think they can reverse the trend towards Republicans among church-going Catholics, they are deluded. Of the 25% of Americans who call themselves Catholic, I'd say a third of those are weekly church-goers. Of that group (weekly church-goers), I'd put the percentage that voted for GWB over Gore and Kerry at over 90%. That's right: over 90%. Very few practicing Catholics I know voted for Kerry, and zero of the truly devout Catholics I know did, either. Dems may make some headway with the twice-a-year-to-Church Catholics -- although I think even they are pretty conservative politically -- but real Catholics deserted the Dems (if they were ever with the Dems in the first place) a long time ago.
>>>>Bush I was also a turkey as a candidate. He had double-crossed fiscal conservatives, never was solidly 'pro-life,' and ran out of vision as soon as the Army wiped Iraq.
LOL. Yeah, I agree.
Sorry, the exercise is not to use opinions to weed out membership, but to measure opinions in the membership.
I agree with you - there are many folks who are nominally Catholic but don't take their faith seriously at all. Personally, I don't consider them catholic.
But they do. It's not up to me to decide church membership. I think it's a fair exercise to see what self-identifying Catholics think. I think its less fair to see what they think to identify if they are catholic or not.
IMHO, it's the same difference as the often-quoted "opionion" polls vs. the polls of "likely voters."
The MSM prefers "opinion"--because it makes the Dimmie line look like it's supported by a majority.
Unfortunately, after you strip the criminals out of the "opinion" and get to the "likely voters," the Dimmies generally lose.
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