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Word is Third World pope need not apply, but why not? (GREELEY ALERT)
Chicago Sun-Times ^ | April 11, 2005 | ANDREW GREELEY

Posted on 04/11/2005 10:23:35 AM PDT by Chi-townChief

ROME -- No Third World cardinal need apply for the job, so says the buzz here in these grim, rainy days after the burial of the pope. It is not yet the time for a South American or African pope -- kind of like the days when it was said it was not yet the time for a black baseball player or a black quarterback or a black head coach in the NFL. The buzz comes from certain Italian and especially curial cardinals (not all of either) and their allies in the "new" movements like the Legionnaires of Christ. It is designed to counter the media buzz of a few days ago about the possibility of such a choice -- an idea not totally lacking in intelligence.

Almost half of the Catholics in the world live in Latin America. Almost a fifth of them live in Brazil, a little less than 200 million Catholics in the largest Catholic country on the planet.

North Americans know very little about Brazil. It is a country, we fantasize, of string bikinis on Copacabana and Ipanema beaches, of carnival, of rings of slums in the hills not very far from the beaches, and an eroding Amazon rain forest.

In fact Brazil is the eighth industrial nation in the world, with its own internal Third World of 50 million people. Four-fifths of its population live in cities. It has over a hundred universities, a large and thriving middle class, five television networks and a thriving literary and artistic culture.

It is also one of the most religious countries in the world. According to research I have done with my Brazilian colleague Celi Scalon, 89 percent of Brazilians believe that there, certainly, is a God, the highest rate in any of the countries in which the question has been asked. Seventy percent believe that God is, personally, concerned about them -- also the highest proportion in the world. Finally, 55 percent of Brazilians claim to be "very happy," again the highest in the world. (The next closest country is Ireland, with 45 percent, The United States is at 32 percent).

Brazil deeply religious

The Brazilians also top the world in the proportion who pray every day: 75 percent. Forty percent of Brazilian Catholics go to church every week, about the same as in the United States. In my only experience of the eucharist in Brazil (on a holy day of obligation) the people filled the church, but in other respects were very like North Americans. Their faces glazed over in boredom during the homily, and they rushed for the exit just as the final hymn was starting.

Many Catholic Brazilians do not find an overlay of pagan religious beliefs and practices inconsistent with their more orthodox beliefs. One need only visit Copacabana on New Year's Eve or Salvador da Bahia on Jan. 6 or the whole country on Shrove Tuesday to observe festivals that are mostly pagan (but not necessarily evil). Moreover, zealous and hard-working evangelical sects have made great progress in Brazil. They are about a tenth of the population and have considerable political power, though they lose two out of five of their second generation.

Nine out of 10 Brazilian Catholics disapprove of both extra-marital sex and homosexual sex. Two out of five reject cohabitation before marriage and premarital sex. These rates are higher than in North America and in Italy and even Poland.

Brazil then is a deeply religious country and powerfully Catholic, despite the presence of remnants of paganism and vigorous Protestant missionary work. It also has enormous problems of social justice.

A bold move

If the cardinal electors should choose a Brazilian pope, it would be a brilliant acknowledgment of the universality of the Catholic church and a potent sign of its concern about South America (about half of whose Catholics live in Brazil).

No one has the right to be a pope, no country can claim that it is necessary that the pope be one of theirs (though Italians tend to think that). There is only one reason to exclude a Brazilian as a matter of principle -- no one of theirs has the qualifications of faith, piety, intelligence, or ability. Just like there were no blacks smart enough to be NFL coaches.

Why then the buzz here against a Third World pope?

Obviously such a man might disrupt the smug little monopoly the buzzers have on the Catholic church.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; US: Illinois
KEYWORDS: nextpope
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To: Mr.Pinette

I don't think the anti-life position you advocate carries much weight at the Vatican. If they were electing the new head of NARAL or the Aryan nations, you might have a point.


21 posted on 04/11/2005 11:15:59 AM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: wideawake
(4) He wants a Brazilian candidate because the only Brazilian candidate with enough prestige is liberal enough that Greeley can deal with him.

Perhaps it is because Brazil is the local of his next work of pulp fiction??

22 posted on 04/11/2005 11:17:47 AM PDT by Conservative Infidel
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To: Chi-townChief

Liberals never want for chutzpah. First, they ridicule, degrade and belittle the institution of marriage as an outdate and unnecessary social ritual, then demand that it be opened to all, including gays. They also declare open warfare on religion, especially Christianity; Catholocism in particular, and the papacy, and criticize it as meaningless mysticism, hypocritical judgmentalism and narrow minded hate mongering: then complain because popes aren't selected based on affirmative action.
The one thing the left seems to have learned is that if an institution can't be destroyed from the outside, try doing it from the inside.


23 posted on 04/11/2005 11:18:12 AM PDT by Spok
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To: Chi-townChief

Does this mean that Brazil and Nigeria are no longer third world countries.


24 posted on 04/11/2005 11:18:44 AM PDT by bigsigh
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To: Zionist Conspirator

So when did you stop eating children? (kidding)


25 posted on 04/11/2005 11:21:55 AM PDT by junta ("Racism" a word invented so as to allow morons access to the political debate.)
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To: Armando Guerra
"...Maybe the Church needs a good, conservative European to bring Europe back into the fold of Christianity more than it needs a third-world pontiff to affirm what is already taking place...."

You could not have said more truth with fewer words if you were St. Thomas More himself. Indeed, the Church needs a man who can simultaneously speak effectively to the media regarding the Church's unwavering commitment to Christian orthodoxy while quietly removing or disarming the dissenting bishops in North America and Europe. IMHO, only Ratzinger has the gifts to accomplish this.

Ratzinger would serve as a bridge, consolidating JPII's evangelical advances while cleaning up the administrative mess he left behind. Then in five to ten years he could hand over the reigns to another charismatic figure like Arinze.

Let His will be done.
26 posted on 04/11/2005 11:23:50 AM PDT by irish_links
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To: wideawake

"I don't think the anti-life position you advocate carries much weight at the Vatican."

I wasn't advocating anything. Nor was the position I mentioned "anti-life." But, the fact remains that while countries like Spain and Italy remain dominantly Catholic, including religion in schools, both countries have a declining population. Which obviously means that people are ignoring the teachings of the church, and using birth control.


27 posted on 04/11/2005 11:23:57 AM PDT by Mr.Pinette
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To: Clemenza

I think the Sub-Saharan Africans are doing a pretty good job of population control by themselves and they do not need help from the two dozen or so "far-right racialists" that inhabit your nighmares.


28 posted on 04/11/2005 11:24:12 AM PDT by junta ("Racism" a word invented so as to allow morons access to the political debate.)
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To: junta

African population control = AIDS and War.


29 posted on 04/11/2005 11:24:57 AM PDT by Clemenza (Alcohol Tobacco & Firearms: The Other Holy Trinity)
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To: Clemenza

"Ah, another "population control" freak. Subsaharan African nations have very low population densities, yet don't have the economic dynamism of certain areas of India (although they still have a long way to go) or China for that matter. "Population control" is where the left-wing anti-life wackos collude with the far-right racialists."

Freak? Moi? No, I was not condoning mass sterilizations, or forced abortions, merely pointing out the fact that the 3rd world has some problems. Thanks for your interest.


30 posted on 04/11/2005 11:29:32 AM PDT by Mr.Pinette
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To: Mr.Pinette
Just also trying to point out that "population" is NOT the determining factor for poverty and economic development.

BTW: Is this John Pinette?

31 posted on 04/11/2005 11:31:11 AM PDT by Clemenza (Alcohol Tobacco & Firearms: The Other Holy Trinity)
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To: Chi-townChief

I'm shocked---SHOCKED, I tell you!

I can't believe POLITICS plays any role in this. The Cardinals pray for guidance, and God tells them who He has chosen to be his next Vicar on Earth.


32 posted on 04/11/2005 11:34:10 AM PDT by ApplegateRanch (The world needs more horses, and fewer Jackasses!)
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To: Clemenza

"Just also trying to point out that "population" is NOT the determining factor for poverty and economic development.

BTW: Is this John Pinette?"

Never said it was "the" determining factor. But it certainly can be a factor. A peasant making 4 dollars a week who has 2 children to feed will be much better off economically than a peasant trying to feed 14 children on the same wage.

No, not John. Rick.


33 posted on 04/11/2005 11:34:43 AM PDT by Mr.Pinette
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To: Mr.Pinette
Depends. A peasent may need those 14 kids to work the farm or bring in more money. Of course, that's only if they are male children.

In places like Mexico, people have less children when they move to the city. In an agricultural society, having many children can be a blessing. Just ask my great-great grandfather.

34 posted on 04/11/2005 11:37:46 AM PDT by Clemenza (Alcohol Tobacco & Firearms: The Other Holy Trinity)
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To: Clemenza

"In Mexico, people have less children when they move to the city."

Mexico City has a population approaching 20 million people, with the vast majority living in poverty. So while people in the city may have fewer children than country folks, they are definitely still having more than they can feed, or more than the economy can employ.


35 posted on 04/11/2005 11:40:58 AM PDT by Mr.Pinette
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To: Mr.Pinette
But, the fact remains that while countries like Spain and Italy remain dominantly Catholic, including religion in schools, both countries have a declining population. Which obviously means that people are ignoring the teachings of the church, and using birth control.

In a century both countries will be predominantly Muslim, and their respective cultures will be dead and gone. No babies = no future.

36 posted on 04/11/2005 11:49:09 AM PDT by Campion
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To: Mr.Pinette
Mexican birthrate is now down to about 3 children. In the 1960s, it was about 7. That's for the country as a whole.

The reason Mexico City has such a large population is that all government services and employment are centered there. When the oil boom took off in the 1970s, Mexico expanded its public sector enormously, causing entire villages to migrate to the city for employment. Since the gravy train has run out, population growth has stabalized relative to what it was from the 1950s-1970s.

Shanghai and Hong Kong have large populations as well, the latter having the highest population density on earth. Would you consider those cities to be squalor-ridden hellholes?

My own belief on population: the problem takes care of itself. People have less children when they become urbanized and interested in a better material life (ie more disposable income). When population growth slows to a trickle, or declines as is the case in Europe, new groups of people will move in to compensate for the declining native born. There is a good reason why there aren't any Romans anymore.

37 posted on 04/11/2005 11:51:10 AM PDT by Clemenza (Alcohol Tobacco & Firearms: The Other Holy Trinity)
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To: Campion

"In a century both countries will be predominantly Muslim, and their respective cultures will be dead and gone. No babies = no future."

well that's cheerful. so we could either try to outbreed each other... which will certainly be fun, or we could try to modernize the world. inject some Americana into some of these societies and they may start to see their women as being more than just baby-making machines.


38 posted on 04/11/2005 11:53:16 AM PDT by Mr.Pinette
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To: Chi-townChief
No Third World cardinal need apply for the job, so says the buzz here in these grim, rainy days after the burial of the pope.

OK, so the question now becomes, which third world cardinal is going to become the new pope? I'm hoping for Cardinal Arinze.

39 posted on 04/11/2005 11:55:33 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Mr.Pinette
we could try to modernize the world. inject some Americana into some of these societies and they may start to see their women as being more than just baby-making machines

You mean as distinct from Western culture, which sees women as sexual toys?

No, I don't think they're stupid enough to trade their future for flat-screen TVs and pornography.

40 posted on 04/11/2005 11:58:38 AM PDT by Campion
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