Posted on 04/09/2005 3:59:58 PM PDT by churchillbuff
Not all the Jews.
First of all, weren't most of Jesus's followers Jews? And weren't all of the apostles Jews (with the exception of Luke)?
Also, according to scripture even some Pharisees warned Jesus that he was in danger:
Luke 13:31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.
I don't think those Pharisees would've done that if they were so eager to see Jesus executed.
Paul's Epistles were written before the Gospels - even before Mark - and they DO relate post-resurrection appearances of Jesus.
There is no rigorously defined doctrine of the trinity in the Christian scriptures. The Holy Spirit, and the righteous man being called a 'son of God', are present in Judaism. They are not, however, seen as separate persons within a triune godhead. The doctrine of the trinity was a concept which evolved over time based, in part, upon theological reflection on the sort of verses to which you allude.
As visions, yes. Not as the sort of physical appearance described in Matthew, Luke and John.
We both believe in the inspiration of the Hebrew scriptures. However we don't "believe in the same Bible" because, first, Jews don't recognize the inspiration of the Christian scriptures, and second, because we don't interpret the Hebrew scriptures in the same way.
Sure they were. I just don't agree that they mean what you think they mean.
Did you miss this part?
We both believe in the inspiration of the Hebrew scriptures.
By "Hebrew scriptures" I mean what you refer to as the "Old Testament", and by "Christian scriptures" what you call the "New Testament".
My question was, what do you think they mean?
No offense, but I've answered this same question innumerable times on this forum, and frankly am not interested in discussing them further. I think they mean what Jews generally understand them to mean. There are plenty of Jewish websites out there if you are seriously interested in learning how Jews interpret these passages.
Uh, I think you're drawing a distinction without a difference.
Both the Gospels and Paul say that Jesus showed Himself to His followers after his death and resurrection. In fact, Paul is describing the same resurrection appearances that the Gospel writers would later write down (except, as you point out, in Mark):
(John 21:1-14):Jesus said to them, "Come and eat breakfast." Yet none of the disciples dared ask Him, "Who are You?"; knowing that it was the Lord.
"Jesus then came and took the bread and gave it to them, and likewise the fish.
"This is now the third time Jesus showed Himself to His disciples after He was raised from the dead."""
Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15: "Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures; that he was buried; that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures; that he appeared to Kephas (Peter), then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. After that he appeared to James, then to all the apostles."
So Paul - - writing in AD (or CE) 50s - 17 years or so after the resurrection -- is writing about the resurrection appearances that were witnessed by people still alive when Paul was writing. And his accounts square with those that were written down, several decades later, in the Gospels themselves.
Those who saw Jesus after his resurrection believed. They were in Jerusalem and Gallilee. People in Rome had just as hard a time accepting the resurrection as people in Jerusalem who had not seen the risen Christ. That's why Paul and Peter were executed in Rome, and thrown out of other cities as they related the mind-blowing thing they had witnessed.
Religion has always been a subject of interest to me. What people believe, and why they believe it. I took a number of courses on religion in college, but mostly I've just read a great deal on the subject.
The mass majority that had the power to say "Crucify him and let his blood be on us and our children" were the ones that that sealed his fate, and they were Jews, but you miss the whole point! He was sent as a sacrifice. The Lamb of God sent to forgive your sins, not matter who you are! That was his whole life's purpose. In order to fulfill it, he had to be executed. On several occasions Jews wanted to stone him for his blasphemy, but did not! The Romans killed him, but the Jewish leadership and mob wanted him dead. The mob was Jewish. the leadership was Jewish. But he went willingly to his fate. That is what happened!
You may see it differently if he was the son of God or not. Personally you can see it anyway you want. It will never change the fact of what is! He is the way the truth and the life! And he that believes in him will never die! Do not fear his teaching, embrace them and you will find your life enlightened in ways you could never imagine! Jesus did not die as a Christian, he died as a Jew and a fulfillment of Gods promise to all men.
Socrates never wrote anything himself. We only have what his followers, chiefly Plato, said that he said.
Take a closer look at what Paul actually says in 1 Corinthians 15.
Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. (1 Corinthians 15:8)
I don't think you'd argue that Paul's experience on the road to Damascus was anything other than a vision. Yet, writing about it here, Paul uses the same word -- "appeared" -- to describe both his own personal experience and the experiences of Cephas, the twelve, etc. The implication I draw from this is that their experiences were of the same nature as Paul's. Or, at least, Paul thought they were. Paul says nothing here about the apostles touching Jesus, or him eating with them. In fact, later in the same chapter, he emphasizes the spiritual nature of Jesus's resurrection.
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