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Jay Sekulow: How a Jewish Lawyer from Brooklyn Came to Believe in Jesus
jewsforjesus ^ | 2005 | Jay Sekulow

Posted on 04/09/2005 3:59:58 PM PDT by churchillbuff

I came to the courtroom early, before the proceedings began. The podium was adjustable, right? I lowered it. I'm five feet, seven and a half inches tall and the last thing I needed was to be standing up on the tips of my toes to reach the podium! When I came back later, for the proceedings, I looked in the back row and there, sitting all together, were my good friends, Moishe Rosen (founder of Jews for Jesus, and at the time, executive director), Tuvya Zaretsky, Susan Perlman and Russ Reed (three of Jews for Jesus' board members), plus my wife, my parents, and a lady from the Los Angeles Board of Airport Commissioners who accidentally sat in the wrong row! The thing that struck me was, when I looked back at the "Christian row" my parents were right in there. Whatever their feelings may be about my beliefs, they were there to support me. And I felt God's presence in that courtroom.

I wasn't too nervous until a couple of weeks before the trial, at which time I became pretty tense. I mean, for a while there, I was physically sick. I knew I was not the best. I don't generally lack confidence, but this was definitely the "big leagues." Despite all the commercial success I'd achieved as a lawyer, I knew that in the Supreme Court of the United States, I was basically just a kid. At age 30, I had to get special permission to defend the case. Yet, by the time I walked into the courtroom I felt great. I should have been a nervous wreck but I wasn't. People were praying for me and God came through.

The stairs I had to climb to get into that courtroom seemed like they were made for giants. And it felt like 14 flights, though I'm sure that's an exaggeration. I signed in with the clerk of the court, who, if I were Catholic, I would say he ought to be canonized. His job, in addition to the paperwork, is to create an air of friendliness which helps soothe last minute jitters. He tells you how it's going to be fun, you're going to enjoy it; everybody looks great--he helps everyone relax.

Next, I met the Marshal, who was decked out in a full-length tuxedo. Once the clerk helps the participants to relax, the Marshal underscores the formality of the whole procedure. He is the one who says "Oye, oye oye. The Supreme Court of the United States is now in session. All these gathered, draw nigh and speak your peace."

The room itself is awe inspiring. The ceilings in the Supreme Court of the United States are about 30-feet high, or at least they seem like it! They are painted very elaborately--lots of gold, with "Equal justice under the law" in big, fancy letters--and the most ostentatious Greco-Roman architecture imaginable. The justices come walking out in their big dark robes and slam down the gavel. I'm telling you my heart skipped a beat--it was very impressive. I was sitting about eight feet away from the justices, maybe ten. My opponent was just across a little podium from me; we were practically staring into each other's faces.

I knew God was present. It was clear. Even my parents, who don't believe like I do, said "the calmness was eerie." My wife (who does believe like I do) put it a little differently. She said she sensed the presence of the Spirit of God. My parents weren't sure what they sensed, but they knew it was something very much out of the ordinary.

The actual proceedings began with announcements of verdicts from previous cases. Then they started the day's docket. Our case was the first to be heard that day. I could hardly believe it when I heard them say, "Now we'll hear case #86-104: Board of Airport Commissioners et al. versus Jews for Jesus." While the justices were busy raking the opposing counsel over the coals, I was sitting with Barry Fisher (the civil rights attorney who assisted me) changing the strategy of our case. We saw where the judges were headed and we knew we'd have to reply to what was being said.

Half an hour later, I heard a voice call out, "Mr. Sekulow?" And I went up there. Me, a short Jewish guy from Brooklyn, New York, went before the justices of the Supreme Court of the United States to defend the constitutional right to stand in an airport and hand out tracts about Jesus!

I'd prepared my first sentence carefully, because I knew it might be my only opportunity to make a statement. I said: "Mr. Chief Justice, may it please the court, local governments have important interests to protect concerning the efficient operation of the airports under their jurisdiction; however, the facts in this case do not justify the repression of cherished first amendment freedoms based on a broad ban prohibiting all first amendment activities to take place." That's all I got to say. That was it. Because for the next half hour, they grilled me.

Justice Scalia and I got into a dialogue that reminded me of the teacher-student interactions from my days back in law school. He'd say "What if this and this?" and I'd have to answer him. There were times when I had to say, "Your honor, that's exactly what I did not say. You left out such and such." And so it went for the next thirty minutes of what was probably the most intense experience of my life.

I left the courtroom feeling like the Beatles must have felt leaving Shea Stadium. Or for those who might not know the Beatles, I felt like "Rocky" after the fight. If you don't know about Rocky, how about a prima ballerina after her first performance? Okay, so a ballerina I'm not, but I felt great! I knew God had brought me through that trial--and he'd brought me through much better than I'd dared to hope.

I had walked into the courtroom thinking about Jesus and how he overturned the moneychangers' tables at the Temple. Jesus was an activist; he stood up for what he knew was right. I drew strength from his example.

This case had already been decided in our favor by two lower circuit courts. The judges had ruled that people cannot be excluded from exercising first amendment rights in the airport.

I know it's a sidetrack, but the lawyer in me can't resist cautioning the reader against sympathizing too quickly with the airport commission, which is trying to restrict the distribution of religious literature. Whether or not one appreciates seeing individuals clad in "Jews for Jesus" T-shirts handing out literature at the airport is immaterial. If their rights of free speech are denied in the airport, who knows when and where you may eventually be denied your freedom of speech?

So now you know about my big day in the Supreme Court. And you've probably surmised that my interest in the case was from more than a purely legal perspective So how did a Jewish kid from New York get involved with Jesus? It happened like this....

I was born on June 10, 1956, in Brooklyn, but we moved to Long Island just after I was born and lived there until I was into my teens. My family attended a Reform synagogue in Long Island; it was not a fancy building, but I remember it had thick, plush drapes. It's funny, the things one remembers. I was very impressed with those drapes; I don't know, maybe because my friend's dad donated them. I liked Friday night services, which we attended about once a month, but Hebrew school, well, unfortunately, none of the kids in our class liked Hebrew school. We were not very well behaved. Sometimes I had the feeling the only reason the cantor didn't kick my friend and me out of the class (which he threatened to do) was because that was the friend whose dad donated the drapes!

"Religion" was not a big topic of discussion in our home. Sometimes my father referred to "The Supreme Being," but he usually reserved such references for the holidays. I didn't think much about God either. I do remember that when I was 13 years old, I'd exchange friendly insults with a Gentile friend of mine, a Catholic. We'd tease each other about our different backgrounds. We were never really serious about it, but I do remember wondering for a brief moment whether Shaun could possibly be right about Jesus. It seemed strange that such a thought would even enter my mind, but it left about as abruptly as it had come. I was pretty secure in my Jewish identity, which, as far as I knew included not believing in Jesus. Although we weren't "religious" we did many things to reinforce our culture and our heritage. I especially enjoyed the many Jewish celebrations: my bar mitzvah, for example.

That was a red letter day. Instead of my usual blue yarmulka with the white lining, I wore a white satin yarmulka with gold embroidery, and a tallis to match. Maybe my performance was leaning toward mediocre, but still, to be bar mitzvah signalled the end of Hebrew school and the thrill of "growing up."

Two years later, my family left New York and moved to Atlanta, Georgia. We joined a synagogue which I would describe as "very Reform." In contrast to our little Long Island synagogue, this one was quite elaborate. An ornate chandelier hung from the center of the beautiful domed ceiling; the ark was made of marble and gold, and we had gold velvet cushions on the seats to match.

As with the synagogue, our new home was also fancier than what we had in Long Island. It was a traditional two-story colonial brick house. Even with all the extra space, we still ended up congregating in the kitchen. It wasn't just for meals, although you'd better believe, my mother makes a great meat loaf. The kitchen was also the place for my parents, my two brothers, my sister and me to shmues and enjoy each other's company.

My high school grades were pretty much like my bar mitzvah Torah reading--mediocre. It wasn't dull wits or laziness, just a short supply of motivation. I actually enjoyed hard work. In fact, I went out and got a job just as soon as I could. By the time I was 17 years old, I was a night manager at a large department store called "Richway." I had my own set of keys and adult responsibilities. I always loved to work; it's just that I waited until college to start working at my grades.

My original plan was to attend a two-year college for some business education courses, and go straight back to work. After a short stint at the local junior college, I developed an appetite for learning and decided to enroll in a four-year school.

My desire to stay in Atlanta was probably the main reason I looked into Atlanta Baptist College (later known as Mercer University). I visited the school and found the friendly, small campus atmosphere appealing. To add to the appeal, the campus was only a five-minute drive from our house! "Dad," I asked, "Will it bother you if I go to a school that calls itself a Baptist college?" But my Dad is a pragmatic man.

"Baptist-shmaptist," he told me. "I'm glad you decided on a four-year college. Go ahead, get yourself a good education."

I enrolled in Atlanta Baptist College with a competitive determination to outstudy and outsmart "all the Christians." I did well in my pre-law studies, and attacked the mandatory Bible classes with a cynical confidence, certain that it would not be difficult to disprove "their" idea that Jesus was the Messiah.

I met a guy named Glenn Borders, whom I immediately labelled a "Jesus freak." Glenn took his religion seriously. There could be no doubt of that; he wore a big wooden cross around his neck! I knew of Jewish people who wore a rather large "chai" but I'd never seen anything the size of Glenn's cross. Despite his outward appearance, Glenn turned out to be a "regular guy." When we talked, I forgot about the big wood cross--maybe because Glenn wasn't trying to shove it down my throat. It turned out that Glenn played college sports, was active in the student government association, and he even managed to find time to be a good student. Glenn was the kind of person who was there to help if you needed him. He was a good friend. It was partly due to our friendship that my competitive attitude toward the Bible courses I was taking changed to an attitude of genuine curiosity.

Glenn suggested I read Isaiah 53. My mind was boggled by the description of the "suffering servant" who sounded so much like Jesus. I had to be misreading the text. I realized with relief that I was reading from a "King James" Bible, and after all, that's a "Christian" translation. So the first thing I said to Glenn after I read it was "Okay, now give me a real Bible." I grabbed the Jewish text, but the description seemed just as clear. Even though this caught my attention, I wasn't too worried. It still sounded like Jesus in the "Jewish Bible," but there had to be a logical explanation.

I began to research the passage and I started to look for rabbinic interpretations. That's when I began to worry. If I read the passage once, I'm sure I read it 500 times. I looked for as many traditional Jewish interpretations as I could find. A number of them, especially the earlier ones, described the text as a messianic prophecy. Other interpretations claimed the suffering servant was Isaiah himself, or even the nation of Israel, but those explanations were an embarrassment to me. The details in the text obviously don't add up to the prophet Isaiah or the nation of Israel. Did I ask the rabbis? No, I didn't ask the rabbis. I read what the rabbis had written over the years, beginning with ancient times, but frankly, I hadn't been too impressed with anyone I'd met lately. My last impression of what to expect from the Jewish religious establishment had been in a service where, when somebody sneezed the rabbi said, "God bless you." Then he said, "What am I saying? I don't believe in God."

I kept looking for a traditional Jewish explanation that would satisfy, but found none. The only plausible explanation seemed to be Jesus. My Christian friends were suggesting other passages for me to read, such as Daniel 9. As I read, my suspicion that Jesus might really be the Messiah was confirmed. That decision however, was strictly intellectual. I'd been struggling to resolve this question for about a year, and I was glad to have finally arrived at a decision.

How did I feel about believing that Jesus was the Messiah? Actually, I was half relieved. Once I'd gotten past the point of not wanting to know, once I took out my paper and pencil and began my lists of why Jesus was the Messiah on one side and why he wasn't on the other--I realized something. I had never felt the need for a Messiah before, but now that I was studying the prophecies and reading about what the Messiah was supposed to do, it sounded pretty good. I'd always thought my cultural Judaism was sufficient, but in the course of studying about the Messiah who would die as a sin bearer, I realized that I needed a Messiah to do that for me. When I concluded that Jesus was that Messiah, I was grateful. It didn't occur to me that I needed to do anything about it.

A few days later, one of my Christian friends invited me to hear Jews for Jesus' singing group, The Liberated Wailing Wall. You have no idea what a relief it was to see other Jews who believed that Jesus is the Messiah. Their presentation of "Jewish gospel music" and some of the things they said helped me realize that if I really believed in Jesus, I needed to make a commitment to him. At the end of the program, they sang a song called "I Am Not Ashamed of the Gospel" and they invited people who wanted to commit their life to Jesus to come up the aisle to meet with them at the front of the church. I responded to that invitation. It was February, 1976.

I wasn't concerned about how my parents would respond. It didn't enter my mind that they might be upset. After all, Jesus was a Jew. I knew that much. I didn't see what the big deal would be about my believing he was the Jewish Messiah. He was Jewish, I was Jewish, I didn't see that there was any reason for us not to believe in him.

As I walked up the aisle in response to the invitation, I got my first hint that Jews who believe in Jesus are sometimes ostracized by family and friends. A lady I'd never met said, "If you get kicked out of your home tonight, you can stay with us." I had a very good relationship with my parents. I didn't smoke, drink, use dope--I didn't give them grief and we were always very close. Did this lady know something that I didn't?

As it turned out, my parents did not react the way I know that some families of Jewish believers have. But after what this woman had said, frankly, I was a little scared. I wasn't prepared for that kind of a reaction, so I decided I wouldn't say anything at first; I'd wait a while. But my relationship with my parents was such that I just couldn't do that. I could not keep such a major decision from them. I tried, but I really couldn't. I got home at about 11 p.m. and went to sleep. I woke up at about two o'clock in the morning. I couldn't go back to sleep, so what did I do? I went and woke my father. I told him I'd decided Jesus was our Messiah. His response was, "You decided?" And of course, he was implying, "Who are you to decide?" but he didn't elaborate. He just shook his head sleepily and said, "We'll talk about it in the morning."

Well, morning came, and he didn't say a word about it. Neither did I. My parents knew I believed in Jesus; they knew I was getting literature from Jews for Jesus because I was living at home and they saw it. In fact, I know they read some of it out of curiosity. Sometimes I'd find it in the "reading room" (the bathroom)--not in the trash--just out where it was obvious that my dad had been looking over it. Since I was living under their roof, I felt if they didn't want to discuss it, I should leave well enough alone. Our relationship didn't change and I have always been grateful that whatever my parents might think of my beliefs, they love and respect me enough to prevent any disagreement from tearing us apart.

It wasn't until three years later that my parents and I actually discussed the subject of Jesus. I was in law school at Mercer at the time. Jews for Jesus ran a gospel statement in the Macon paper, "The Messiah has come and his name is Y'shua." My parents either came across the ad, or I showed it to them; I don't remember which. We discussed it; they didn't agree, but they were never hostile. They knew I was still Jewish; they knew I hadn't undergone any drastic personality changes--I wasn't involved with some strange cult.

I got married in 1978 on my birthday, June 10. I had just completed my first year of law school. I went on to graduate from law school in the top 5% of my class. I began my career at law as a tax prosecutor for the IRS. It was the best experience I could have had. In one sense it's a miserable job; prosecuting people for fraud and tax evasion never won anybody a popularity contest. I even had a few death threats from time to time. What made it worthwhile was the fact that I was trying as many as twelve cases per week. It was phenomenal. That kind of experience can really launch a person into a terrific career--if the person wins their cases, which I did. I stayed with the IRS for about eighteen months, then my name came up for a transfer which I didn't want to take.

At that point, I figured, "If I'm going to set up private practice, now is the time to do it." So I rented space with a friend from law school. Our monthly overhead was about $1600. I thought that was a fortune! I didn't have a client, not one, but I did have some good contacts. In less than eight months, my firm was up to nine lawyers, two full- time CPAs and three para-legals. We were the fastest growing firm in Atlanta. How did we do it? We took on some pretty controversial cases and won. We were known as very tough litigators and we developed a rapport and a good client base. When people were in trouble, they went to Sekulow and Roth.

Stuart Roth and I could hardly believe that our clients were paying us these $25,000 and $35,000 retainers, and here we were just 26 years old. But despite the fact that we were very young, when clients walked out of our office, they knew we were taking care of them.

Both my family and business life were flourishing. My wife and I had a son. In addition to the law practice, I began a real estate development firm which grossed over $20 million after the first year.

I kept in touch with Jews for Jesus and became a member of their board of directors. Business continued to flourish and Pam and I had another son. Yet there was something else I wanted to do. I thought more and more about using my legal skills to serve God. In 1986 I became the Jews for Jesus General Legal Counsel. That is how I happened to be defending a case before the Supreme Court of the United States, as described at the beginning of my story.

Incidentally, the verdict on that case was unanimous. The decisions of the lower circuit courts were upheld, and the Supreme Court declared the airport's resolution to curtail first amendment rights unconstitutional. Since the trial is over, however, I can devote myself to C.A.S.E: Christian Advocates Serving Evangelism. That is what we've named the new organization which will be defending the legal rights of individuals and organizations who are telling the gospel--specifically in issues relating to access, as in parks, college campuses, street corners, and of course, airports. We will work with other groups to ensure that the access to first amendment rights remains protected. It's pretty scary to think that the day could come when people might be prohibited from expressing their beliefs in a public forum. The public, of course, has the right to refuse the literature. If people are annoyed that there are Jews (and others) who believe in Jesus, then so be it. But there are people who are looking for God, for answers to the question of how to know him. They need to hear the good news about the Messiah, and we must protect our right to tell them.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial
KEYWORDS: aclj; brooklyn; christians; convert; jaysekulow; jesus; jewsforjesus; lawyer; messianic; sekulow
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To: P-Marlowe
There is no Biblical basis for Peter having a Throne on Earth.

The Catholics disagree, and would point to Matthew 16:18 and John 21:15-17, among others, as the scriptural basis for Peter's authority. And other passages which they say demonstrate apostolic succession.

Do you believe that there is a central Christian authority? Someone with unquestioned authority to determine whether or not a belief is Christian? And by "someone" I mean a person or persons, not a text. As we see, texts are subject to varying interpretations. Is there anyone who can authoritatively interpret the text?

In light of God's covenant with the Jews, why do you think that the Throne of David is vacant right now?

It is because of the covenant that the throne is vacant. And it is because of the covenant that the throne will not forever be vacant.

281 posted on 04/13/2005 5:48:03 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: Chunga; Bella_Bru
Are agnostic or atheistic Jews who use persuasion to attempt to convert practicing Jews to their systems of unbelief apostates?

Can you point to any real-life examples of this proselytizing agnostic or atheist?

Even if you can, there is a substantial distinction between questioning or renouncing "Belief A", and actively embracing "Belief B". An agnostic or atheist may lack belief in Judaism, but he has not actively accepted a different religion in its place.

282 posted on 04/13/2005 5:51:07 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: malakhi
Do you believe that there is a central Christian authority? Someone with unquestioned authority to determine whether or not a belief is Christian?

Of Course. Jesus Christ. He is the only one who knows who is a Christian and who is not. Christians are to follow him, not some earthly representative.

283 posted on 04/13/2005 5:54:59 AM PDT by P-Marlowe
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To: churchillbuff

saving for later


284 posted on 04/13/2005 5:56:23 AM PDT by krunkygirl
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To: HiTech RedNeck
Christianity was inherent in the message of Judaism before it got hijacked by rabbinism.

"Rabbinism", as you call it, is nothing more than the post-second-temple continuation of Pharisaic Judaism. As such, it didn't "hijack" anything, but rather was the only form of Judaism which survived the Roman depradations of the first and second centuries C.E. It is Christianity which was the novelty, not "rabbinism".

285 posted on 04/13/2005 5:57:25 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: HiTech RedNeck
The proud wanted a political savior.

Rather, Jews expect a messiah who actually fulfils the messianic prophecies of the Hebrew scriptures. Something which you tacitly acknowledge when you state your belief that Jesus will come a second time as judge and king.

286 posted on 04/13/2005 5:58:59 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: P-Marlowe
Of Course. Jesus Christ. He is the only one who knows who is a Christian and who is not. Christians are to follow him, not some earthly representative.

Uh huh.

You and a Catholic are discussing a point of doctrinal difference. You say Jesus supports your position, and he says Jesus supports his position. Since you can't take a plane to Galilee to ask him in person, how do you resolve the dispute?

By citing Jesus as your authority, all you are doing, essentially, is smuggling in the "text-as-authority" claim. Is there a living, earthly, human authority? Or not?

287 posted on 04/13/2005 6:04:40 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: PigRigger
Many interpetations....most attribute this to being "born again" or witnessing the resurrection and/or ascension.

There is no question the early Christians believed that Christ would be coming back very soon. That is how they were pursuaded to give up all their possessions.

288 posted on 04/13/2005 6:43:10 AM PDT by Inyokern
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To: PigRigger
When you supply proof that Moses parted the Red Sea, or delivered the plagues upon Eygpt. While your at it, provide proof of the Great flood.

The exisitence of Moses is not as crucial to us as the existence of Jesus to you. We do not worship Moses. We do not make graven images of Moses.

The year is not important, the event is.

The crucifixion is supposed to have happened in an era when record-keeping was much better than it was in the time of Moses. We have documentation for the year of the death of Herod the Great but not that of Jesus. Luke knows the year in which John the Baptist began his ministry but he does not know the year of the crucifixion.

The year, in itself, is not important but, if it had actually happened, the early church would have remembered when it happened and commemorated that date. As it is, the church merely celebrates Jesus' resurrection on the pagan fertility holiday of Easter (Ashtoreth) when pagans believed nature was resurrected.

289 posted on 04/13/2005 6:59:01 AM PDT by Inyokern
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To: Inyokern
"That is how they were persuaded to give up all their possessions."

Not exactly.

The context of living a more humble life was dictated by the command that there is only one God that should be served, revered, and praised.

Christ warned those that wished to follow him that the lust for money and power (materialism) inhibits one's ability to serve and worship the one true God (Jewish law found in the Ten Commandments). In other words, he equivocated the pursuit of money and power to idol worship. It was consistent with Jewish teachings, and the words of the prophets, than as it is today.

Christ never dictated that a rich or powerful man could not find salvation. However, He made it abundantly clear that material excesses, and the pursuit thereof, can corrupt a man's mind and soul.
290 posted on 04/13/2005 7:29:08 AM PDT by PigRigger (Send donations to http://www.AdoptAPlatoon.org)
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To: Inyokern
"The existence of Moses is not as crucial to us as the existence of Jesus to you. We do not worship Moses. We do not make graven images of Moses."

Untrue for Jew and Christian alike. If Moses did not exist, or any of the great prophets of the Old Testament, than the Jewish faith is built on falsehoods on which the Christian beliefs were full filled through Christ's birth, death, and Resurrection.

Through the the written word (the Bible), people witnessed to the accounts that occurred during those times. Therefore, you base faith in those who transcribed that certain persons existed, and that certain events occurred, without concrete evidence in many cases. That is the very same principle that supports my faith that Christ existed, that Christ died, that Christ rose from the dead.

The four Gospels were written as a witness to these events; just as were the books of the Old Testament. Furthermore, the actions of these men after the resurrection indicate that something overwhelming and powerful transformed their lives. Some event occurred that turned simple, scared fishermen and laborers into brave and courageous leaders willing to risk death at any moment. This occurred after cowering and running for their lives.

Unlike your assumed accounts, the Apostles (after the resurrection) did not live a life full of pleasure and plenty. Their remaining days were filled with poverty, misery, and loneliness. Again, they all died, with few exceptions, very horrifying deaths; deaths that could have been avoided if they only recanted what they had stated to be truth. Not one denied what they witnessed. They didn't because they witnessed what they stated; they believed they saw Christ alive after his death. They did not fear the horrors that befell them because they saw death conquered. Your explanations give no support to the actions of these men after the resurrection.

So Luke does not record a date that is acceptable to you. Would that not work against your theory that this Jesus was contrived and really did not exist. If this was a hoax you would think the conspiring Apostles would have at least got all their stories straight before beginning their con game with the public.

As to other timeliness, are you stating that the Old Testament has no ambiguity with regard to historical events? Do any of these apparent contradictions and/or unknowns weaken your faith?
291 posted on 04/13/2005 7:57:39 AM PDT by PigRigger (Send donations to http://www.AdoptAPlatoon.org)
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To: malakhi
By citing Jesus as your authority, all you are doing, essentially, is smuggling in the "text-as-authority" claim.

Indeed. Is there a better authority than the word of God?

Is there a living, earthly, human authority? Or not?

And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (Act 17:10-11)

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Heb 4:12)

292 posted on 04/13/2005 8:04:06 AM PDT by P-Marlowe
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To: P-Marlowe
Is there a better authority than the word of God?

Who has the authority to interpret it?

Is there a living, earthly, human authority? Or not?

Its a simple question. A yes or no will suffice.

293 posted on 04/13/2005 8:06:00 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: HiTech RedNeck
Many Christians wouldn't have much of a quarrel with that list.

#s 2, 3 and 9 are cleraly incompatible with Judaism. Look again.

Christianity was inherent in the message of Judaism before it got hijacked by rabbinism.

So we used to be Christians, but only recently became Jews? Huh?

The physical body of Jesus is something that many Christians view (on biblical grounds) as a tent that was created by God for God to occupy, rather than being inherent in God by nature.

In other words, corporeal.

294 posted on 04/13/2005 8:07:31 AM PDT by Alter Kaker (Whatever tears one may shed, in the end one always blows one’s nose.-Heine)
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To: malakhi
"...there is a substantial distinction between questioning or renouncing 'Belief A' and actively embracing 'Belief B.'"

Of course there is; let's not get into grade-school logical constructs.

I'll be back later with a detailed response. I have many pressing appointments today.

295 posted on 04/13/2005 8:46:07 AM PDT by Chunga
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To: jabotinsky
"a Jew who believes in one god ...with no physical manifestation whatsoever"

While it's correct to say that the infinite God is not confined to a physical manifestation, to say that He cannot, nor has not physically manifested is just wrong according to scripture.

Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. 21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: 22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: 23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Genesis 12:7 - And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

Genesis 17:1 - And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Genesis 18:1 - And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

Genesis 26:2 - And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:

Genesis 26:24 - And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not, for I am with thee, and will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for my servant Abraham's sake.

Exodus 3:2 - And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Genesis 32:30 - And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

22 And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O LORD God! for because I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face. 23 And the LORD said unto him, Peace be unto thee; fear not: thou shalt not die.

Judges 13:22 - And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

Isaiah 6:5 - Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

Daniel 3:25 - He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Psalms 110:1 - The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. (- David is the writer...Who is David calling "my Lord", that the Lord spoke to?)

Proverbs 30:4 - Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

296 posted on 04/13/2005 9:17:13 AM PDT by DannyTN
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To: Inyokern
"Matthew 16:28: Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

Go back and look at 1 Kings before Israel rejected God as King and chose a human king instead. The kind of Kingdom that God had was a spiritual kingdom, where the only earthly government structures were the Judges and councils.

This is the kind of Kingdom that Jesus began, so yes those people did see Jesus coming in his kingdom. Now there will indeed be a physical government as well, but that won't be until the 1000 year reign of Christ spoken of in Revelations as well as Exekiel 39.

297 posted on 04/13/2005 9:40:12 AM PDT by DannyTN
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To: PigRigger
If Moses did not exist, or any of the great prophets of the Old Testament, than the Jewish faith is built on falsehoods on which the Christian beliefs were full filled through Christ's birth, death, and Resurrection.

If it were proven that Moses did not exist, the Torah would not be diminished any more than Shakespeare's plays would be diminished if it were proven that Shakespeare did not exist. All of the commandments would still be in the Torah. None of them depend on Moses.

On the other hand, if Jesus did not exist, then Christianity would be completely invalidated. EVERYTHING in Christianity depends on the existence of Jesus, so the standard of proof is much higher.

298 posted on 04/13/2005 11:47:22 AM PDT by Inyokern
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To: malakhi
Who has the authority to interpret it?

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (Joh 14:26)

Is there a living, earthly, human authority? Or not? Its a simple question. A yes or no will suffice.

Jesus is living. The Word is alive. The Holy Spirit brings us into all truth.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. (Joh 16:13)

As far as who has the authority to declare someone a Christian or not, anyone has the authority to call himself a Christian and any other person has a right to question that declaration. Only Christ knows who his sheep truly are. We are not commanded to follow men, but Christ alone. I trust that if I am faithful in my committment to Christ and that if I diligently study his word, that the Holy Spirit will lead me into all truth.

What authority do you answser to in determining whether or not you are a Jew? If someone in authority were to deny your Jewishness would that affect your standing before God? Is there someone (some earthly human authority) with more authority in regard to determining your own Jewishness than yourself?

299 posted on 04/13/2005 11:55:24 AM PDT by P-Marlowe
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To: P-Marlowe
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

You say your doctrinal understanding is inspired by the Holy Spirit. My Catholic friend Dave says the same thing. Your beliefs conflict. How can I determine who is correct? You both claim divine inspiration, and you can't both be right. Who has the authority to interpret correct doctrine?

anyone has the authority to call himself a Christian

LDS? Seventh-Day Adventists? Oneness Pentecostals? How about messianic believers who deny both the trinity and the divinity of Jesus?

and any other person has a right to question that declaration.

By what authority? Who's to say that you are right, and the Oneness Pentecostal is wrong?

What authority do you answser to in determining whether or not you are a Jew?

The Tanakh, the Talmud, Tradition, the entire body of halakhah and commentary, the sages, the rabbis. Ultimately, klal israel, the Jewish people.

If someone in authority were to deny your Jewishness

Impossible, because I am halakhically Jewish.

Is there someone (some earthly human authority) with more authority in regard to determining your own Jewishness than yourself?

Yes! JEWS (plural) decide who is a Jew. If I converted to hinduism, the Jewish community would be perfectly within its rights to consider me apostate and cut off from the community.

Because he has despised the word of the LORD, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be utterly cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him. (Numbers 15:31)

A non-Jew or an apostate can no more declare himself to be halakhically Jewish than I can declare myself to be emperor of France.

300 posted on 04/13/2005 12:15:30 PM PDT by malakhi
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