Playing God with Terri Schiavo, and millions found it moral

Minneapolis Star Tribune ^ | 4/2/05 | Jonathan Law

[rhema]

Would you favor it if the government suddenly quit feeding and giving liquids to the political detainees being held at Guantánamo Bay, because they had become an expensive nuisance? Or would you take to the streets to protest against the viciousness of it?

Would you be in favor if one of our state governments decided to starve to death its prisoners because they had become too expensive to house? Or would you be demonstrating at prison gates or in front of the Capitol -- objecting to the inhumanity of it?

If you believe it would be inhumane and vicious to starve terrorists and prison inmates to death, what about that utterly defenseless woman in Florida named Terri Schiavo, who died Thursday?

How can it have been good policy and good humanity to starve an innocent woman to death, while it's bad policy and despicable humanity to do it to prisoners?

Some "no-thinkums" will protest, "It's not the same issue!" Oh, isn't it?

Some years ago the Florida Legislature decided that if someone is being kept alive by "life-support measures," didn't leave a living will, and the family is divided over whether to "pull the plug" or keep the person alive by life-support equipment, the state courts could hold hearings and a judge could decree what shall be done.

Most folks thought it was a good policy.

It has become a disaster, in fact, which is what always happens when men and women think they are God.

[drt1]

"If not an impartial judge, then who? A USA Today poll?"

Cute but your statement underscores your predisposition in this matter. There is ample dispute in the facts of this case and the 'Impartiality' of Greer is another area of reasonable dispute. The bottom line is that a single judge, in a relative legal vacuum, made a finding of fact, completely controlled the legal process and was subject to review only insofar as he did so in accordance with the rules of procedure.

At no time, and contrary to the assertions that 30+ judges sided with his findings, were these findings tested in any subsequent appeals.

I personally would have welcomed a de novo review of the 'Facts' of this matter, conducted in an indisputably neutral and geographically distant venue, and would have stood by the results therefrom.

IMO At worst, this process is indicative of serious corruption of the process and, at best, a completely mishandled exercise in judicial rigidity and arrogance.

That is how I and many others feel about this sad case, no matter how much it embarrasses you.

[sinkspur]

And of course he wouldn't do it for HIS daughter, now would he?

Bush would have resolved this before it ever got into court.

[An American In Dairyland]

but we have little right to demonize him to this degree.

Michael Schiavo is what he is and unfortunately for him, he displayed exactly what he is to the entire world.

[robertpaulsen]

"You have been reading the copious accounts/affidavits of eyewitnesses ... haven't you?"

Yes I have. These were all given after Judge Greer's January, 2000 hearing and his February, 2000 order to remove the feeding tube.

Why "after", rhema?

Why should I believe their statements? Where were these eyewitnesses, these third-party caregivers, Terri's friends, et al. when it was a matter of life of death for Terri?

18 months later they come crawling out of the woodwork with their "I saw this when I was alone with Terri" and "I heard this when I was alone with Terri", and "Terri said/did this when we were alone together" stories.

Even if there would have been a de novo trial, I doubt they would have shown up to testify in front of a judge, under oath, subject to cross examination, and subject to perjury.

[Nathan Zachary]

Proof of what? That her heart had stopped, and she was paddled 7 times by the EMT's, put on a resprator, etc?
That her heart stopped and ultimately her brains death was caused because she was beliemic, that she was not this perfectly healthy person of 110 lbs?

Just how long does a brain last without oxygen anyways? From the moment she collapsed, no heartbeat, the phone call, the arival of the ambulance, getting her loaded up, transported back to the hospital all the while being worked on unsuccessfully trying to restore her heart beat.... The brain dies after 4-5 mins.

I doubt that all this happened under 20 mins or so.

The proof is in her medical records, plus much of this was stated even by Dr. Quack, who said she had 75% of her brain without even looking at her scans; who everyone believes because it's what they want to hear.

[drt1]

His "Squeeze" has been incredibly protected throughout this travesty hasn't she? I do not think there has even been a picture of her or her with MS disclosed anywhere (At least I haven't seen or been able to locate one) - A fact that I find unbelievable given the video capabilities in the hands of the majority of people today. She must live in a small room and never go out - Maybe another victim of MS's thirst to have his way at ANY cost.

[Grateful One]

Bush would have resolved it before it ever got to court.......

That's not the question. The question is, is what whould he have done if the same exact set of conditions were in place and it was HIS daughter? Or, any one else's in the public eye, with influence or stature?

I think you might possibly know the answer to that, and so do many others, but do not want to have to confront that pleasant thought, as I also did not. I thought the world of this man, but this is the question I have to ask, even if the answer is not pleasant, not one I will be happy with.

My thanks and appreciation to you for the reply, sinkspur.

[savedbygrace]

I've said it before on FR, but the idea that public policy would be modified in accordance to the results of public opionion polls is akin to what the Romans did to Christians in the Coliseum. Thumbs up or thumbs down?

This is not the country I grew up in. It has changed for the worse by a wide margin. This is shameful.

[robertpaulsen]

"in a relative legal vacuum"

In a legal atmosphere precisely defined by the Florida legislature.

Now, maybe you disagree with the Florida legislature. Fine. But Judge Greer followed the law as written, as evidenced by the concurrence of the 30+ judges.

"I personally would have welcomed a de novo review"

No doubt. You and millions of others would have loved to delay the outcome for as long as possible. One more exam by one more doctor. One more test. How about an MRI? PET? A USSC ruling. Congressional legislation.

One more trial. One more delay.

15 years, drt1. Time enough in those 15 years.

At worst, this process is indicative of serious corruption of the process and, at best, a completely mishandled exercise in judicial rigidity and arrogance."

I disagree. I believe Judge Greer upheld Florida law. Your frustration is misdirected.

[Nathan Zachary]

People who resort to personal attacks during a debate do so because they know they are on the loosing end of it and come up with anything intelligent to say in defense of their position.

[The Irishman]

Just because you, having not been present for the presentation of the evidence or the court proceedings, do not agree with the decision of the Court does not give you standing. Your opinion has no more value than any other "man in the street". Just because you and I have read internet articles and engaged in "chat" groups leaves quite a gap in our knowledge of this case.
There are two sad things about this case in my view. The saddest is the condition of Terri Schiavo before her death. The second is the involvement of people in this family's ordeal who are using them and Terri as a political football for their own agendas, religious and political.

[yevgenie]

Anyone else notice the following?

1. Terri Schiavo wasn't drooling.
2. She must have been able to swallow her own saliva.
3. That implies she would be able to take food and liquids by mouth.
4. So, the feeding tube was inserted for convenience, not medical necessity.
5. Prohibiting feeding to a person who CAN eat or drink, therefore, amounts to murder.

This was murder, pure and simple.

[robertpaulsen]

"plus much of this was stated even by Dr. Quack"

Hey, hey, watch it. That's Dr. Quack, nominee.

[ladyjane]

My thoughts exactly. I think i'll refrain from posting any further fact, which is completely disregarded anyways by those that insist a person with no brain can make concious decissions and deliberate movements.

Wow. She had no brain! No brain at all! Given your statements it's a relief that you're claiming you're going to refrain from posting any more. Somehow I don't believe you - about the brain nor about not posting any more.

[An American Patriot]

"A lot of states have very strict laws against the mistreatment of animals. By not giving them food and water could involve some serious jail time."

INCLUDING FLORIDA!

I've posted this several times, however, in case you, or anyone else missed it, here it is again:


The 2004 Florida Statutes

Title XLVI

CRIMES Chapter 828

ANIMALS: CRUELTY; SALES; ANIMAL ENTERPRISE PROTECTION

828.12 Cruelty to animals.--

(1) A person who unnecessarily overloads, overdrives, torments, deprives of necessary sustenance or shelter, or unnecessarily mutilates, or kills any animal, or causes the same to be done, or carries in or upon any vehicle, or otherwise, any animal in a cruel or inhumane manner, is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 (SEE BELOW) or by a fine of not more than $5,000, or both. (EMPHASIS ADDED)

(2) A person who intentionally commits an act to any animal which results in the cruel death, or excessive or repeated infliction of unnecessary pain or suffering, or causes the same to be done, is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or by a fine of not more than $10,000, or both.

(a) A person convicted of a violation of this subsection, where the finder of fact determines that the violation includes the knowing and intentional torture or torment of an animal that injures, mutilates, or kills the animal, shall be ordered to pay a minimum mandatory fine of $2,500 and undergo psychological counseling or complete an anger management treatment program.


The 2004 Florida Statutes

Title XLVI
CRIMES Chapter 775
DEFINITIONS; GENERAL PENALTIES; REGISTRATION OF CRIMINALS

s. 775.082

(a) For a misdemeanor of the first degree, by a definite term of imprisonment not exceeding 1 year (EMPHASIS ADDED)


LINK TO SITE:

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0828/titl0828.htm&StatuteYear=2004&Title=%2D%3E2004%2D%3EChapter%20828

[drt1]

"The saddest is the condition of Terri Schiavo before her death. The second is the involvement of people in this family's ordeal who are using them and Terri as a political football for their own agendas, religious and political."

I agree completely with both of your observations. IMO it never should have been this way and, after looking at the record, obtaining an understanding of the facts (As opposed to rumors) and trying my best to independently evaluate what I have seen, I've concluded that enough questions are present to have warranted a final review and disposition - And I am completely agnostic regarding what the results of such a review would have been.

Again, IMO, this was badly handled at virtually all levels but the actions of MS, Felos and Greer appear to be arrogant, rigid and selfish in the extreme. That is not to say that others on the opposite side of the debate did not exhibit similar behavior.

[Nathan Zachary]

"Wow. She had no brain! No brain at all!"

That's what the picture shows. there is some conective tissue, a cartlage like material which forms chambers shown, but the dark areas are empty, fluid. The entire cerebral cortex is missing. Gone. That means any bit that you imagine is brain (maybe that area of frontal lobe, which doesn't look healthy to me) could work, but there is a problem. It's not hooked up to anything. Because the cerebral cortex is missing, which carries all the singles from all parts of the brain to various parts of the body and visa versa. I do know how to read scans and xrays and am qualified to do so.

[robertpaulsen]

This guy had more brain than Terri before he saw the Wizard:

[Cboldt]

Terri was on a respirator when she was brought in. Her heart had stopped, she was paddled 7 times en route to the hospital emergency, and was being kept alive artificially for several weeks, at which time they had to insert a feeding tube.

I'm curious about the history of "tube in", "tube out." Some have asserted that at some point after her initial treatment (lasted what, 3 months or so?) that she was sent home. Did she have a tube at that time? Others have asserted that a tube was inserted while she was in a long term care facility, in order to reduce the time it took to feed her. NOw, if she had the tube from initial treatment, why would a tube be inserted at long-term care? I don't know the answer, but you seem to have a good handle on the details of her medical treatment.

[HighlyOpinionated]

The MSM is realizing, in light of Pope John Paul II's present condition, that they blew it when they presented Terri Schiavo as if she were already on death's door when they asked their "poll" questions.

They're trying to cover their tracks and play both sides of the fence. Won't work.

I do believe it's an MSM "mea culpa" 'uh-oh.'