Posted on 04/01/2005 1:27:16 PM PST by mark502inf
RFE/RL: How are those indicted for war crimes by the Hague-based tribunal regarded in Serbia and Croatia? Our guests are: Natasa Kandic, director of the Humanitarian Law Center in Belgrade, and Zoran Pusic, president of the Civic Committee for Human Rights in Zagreb.
The Serbian government recently saw off former General Vladimir Lazarevic, indicted for crimes committed in Kosovo, with what seemed like full honors as he left for The Hague. He was escorted by two ministers, and before leaving he had an audience with Serbian Orthodox Patriarch Pavle together with Serbian Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica. Ms. Kandic, how do you feel about this?
Natasa Kandic: You are right, General Lazarevic was seen off with full honors, as a hero and man of honor. His [voluntary] extradition is perceived as an incredibly brave act aimed at meeting a precondition so that Brussels can launch a feasibility study for a EU Stabilization and Association Agreement for Serbia and Montenegro.
The Serbian government as well as the ruling political elite have thereby shown how they really perceive the Hague tribunal. For the government, General Lazarevic and three other generals whose extradition is demanded by the tribunal are not individuals indicted for the most serious crimes, but rather heroes who fought for the rights of the Serbian people. That was the dominant feeling in the media and in various politicians' statements. Once again, those who have committed crimes are perceived as heroes and patriots.
RFE/RL: Mr. Pusic, as far as I know, Croatian generals have been seen off to The Hague in a very similar way. Is that correct?
Zoran Pusic: The biggest protest was the one by the supporters of General Mirko Norac in 2003, as well as subsequent ones by supporters of General Ante Gotovina, who, however, remains a fugitive. The scenario has been similar to the one Ms. Kandic described for Serbia. As soon as the indictments arrived from The Hague, a public campaign would start, aimed at showing that those indicted are heroes and men of honor -- these are words that have often been in used in Croatia.
RFE/RL: Let's imagine that General Gotovina decided to turn himself in. Would he be seen off as a hero?
Pusic: It isn't really clear. What bothered me was that some media have published panegyrics about General Gotovina, while the crimes he was charged with were glossed over. However, I think that public opinion is slowly changing. That man is holding the entire nation hostage -- and I do not think this word is too strong -- because there will be no direct negotiations with the EU until General Gotovina is extradited to the Hague tribunal. People are slowly getting fed up with it.
Let me remind you what happened to General Norac. Even the current prime minister, Ivo Sanader, attended a rally whose slogan was "We are all Mirko Norac." However, when Norac was brought to trial in Rijeka, and when those involved together with him in the killing of civilians started giving evidence about it, public opinion started to change. Many of those who previously had not shown any interest in the trial said, "Wait, I am not Mirko Norac, I do not find the murder of women and old people a heroic act, no matter what that person might have done for Croatia."
RFE/RL: Crimes committed against those belonging to another ethnic group or religion are very often "justified" with patriotic explanations. When a Serb kills a Croat or a Croat kills a Serb, that is not considered such a horrible crime as when a Serb kills a Serb or when a Croat kills a Croat. As if there are acceptable and unacceptable crimes.
Kandic: That is exactly where the problem lies. People in Serbia keep talking about the crimes committed against Serbs in Croatia, Bosnia, and Kosovo. Serbian victims are constantly present in public discussions. When crimes against non-Serbs are mentioned, it is always said that in some cases some members of Serbian forces did commit crimes against those belonging to other ethnic groups, but those were the work of individuals who must be punished. They are always treated as [isolated] incidents.
The main crime, the one that is constantly discussed, is the historic crime against the Serbs, and it is always said that this crime has never ceased. For instance, whenever Kosovo is mentioned, it is always associated with the NATO bombing [of Serbian targets]; there is nothing else.
When General Lazarevic went to The Hague after being received by Patriarch Pavle and Prime Minister Kostunica, he claimed that what made him decide to turn himself in was his continuing defense of Kosovo. All the media reported it as if those were the words of the greatest patriot of all, but everybody forgets that he was indicted for individual command responsibility for a series of crimes committed in Kosovo. Those were not incidents committed by a couple of individuals; those are very serious crimes whose victims were many civilians, old people, women, and children. Those facts are not publicly discussed, but instead the public constantly focuses on Serbian victims. Attempts to draw public attention to victims belonging to other ethnic groups are seen as a betrayal of Serbian interests, mercenary activities paid for by foreign secret services, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Albanians, etc.
The line is that everybody commits crimes against the Serbs and that the events that took place during World War II were simply repeated during the 1991-99 wars. That was the daily message in all the news programs of state-run Radio-Television Serbia from 1991, 1992, 1993, and 1994. People were called on to stand up and fight to defend the Serbs who were allegedly threatened -- first by the Croatian "Ustashe" [a term for pro-Axis militant nationalists from the 1930s and World War II], then by the so-called Balijas [a pejorative term for Bosnian Muslims], and eventually by "Albanian terrorists." Today the atmosphere remains the same: those indicted for war crimes are glorified, while their victims are repeatedly denied the right to be treated as victims.
It's pretty difficult to find many Elbownian 'victims' of the Serbs but finding Elbow criminals, drug trafficers, pimps and assorted thugs is quite easy.
Not so difficult. In yesterday's news you could read about the return of some more Albanian bodies to Kosovo from where they were hidden in mass graves at a Serb Police training area near Belgrade. Now it is tough to find the 2500+ ethnic Albanians still missing six years later, but lately there's been some some hints as to where they may be found: Secret police in Kosovo cover-up.
And in today's news, you can read this story Republika Srpska Investigates 900 Officials for Complicity in Srebrenica Massacre about the Serbs finally coming to terms with their massacre of 7,800 people at Srebrenica.
Ethnic Albanians walk past the remains of 43 ethnic Albanians at the border crossing between Kosovo and Serbia in Merdare on Thursday, March 31, 2005. Serbian authorities returned the bodies of 43 ethnic Albanians killed in the war in Kosovo and buried in a mass grave in Serbia, which were exhumed from the grounds of a police training center in Batajnica, just outside of Belgrade. (AP Photo/ Visar Kryeziu)
That same B.S. is often parroted on Free Republic as well. As I once told another U.S. Army Balkans vet [Paratrooper_501] who was brand new on Free Republic and amazed at the Serb propaganda being posted and accepted as fact:
Well, Paratrooper, welcome to the whacky, upside down world of the Balkans threads. Its where U.S. military veterans who were actually there are liars or Al Qaeda apologists, where Serbs did no wrong, where Racak & Srebrenica are hoaxes, where Slobo is a hero and where farmers murdered in a ditch are terrorists. Posting the truth here will get you insulted, reviled, and called names--kind of like being in a CTC AAR!
I'm doubtful of your claim since anything built on church property would be stopped as soon as UNMIK/KFOR saw it or when the church authorities complained. I don't think that the Serbs would have simply let this happen without bringing it to UNMIK. Every time a teen-ager throws a rock and breaks a church window it is reported--it is difficult to believe that a mosque was built over a Serb church and it escaped their attention. Why don't you tell me where this happened--the village or town--and I'll pass this on to the American police element in UNMIK & the U.S. Army element in KFOR so somebody can check it out.
Now, if you're talking about an old site that no longer belongs to the Orthodox Church, perhaps this did occur. But then, that means somebody just used their own property as they themselves saw fit.
And you were there - that's why I'm asking you.
What I hear you saying is that if a church falls into their hands by legitimate means then it is OK for it to be turned into a mosque. (As you may know, the largest mosque in Istanbul was once a Christian church.)
But, you have first hand knowledge -- I've never been there: Have any Christian churhces in what was Yugoslavia been destroyed since that nation broke up? If so, how many?
"How are those indicted for war crimes by the Hague-based tribunal regarded in Serbia and Croatia?"
Could also read "How are those indicted for war crimes by the Hague-based tribunal regarded in Kosovo?"
One man's war criminal is another man's national hero. And not just in the Balkans.
Well, ben, you brought it up and didn't attribute it to anyone else--what else was I supposed to think? If you're asking me did I ever see or hear of mosques being built on top of Christian churches over there, the answer is no--as I described before, it would have been virtually impossible to do. However, when the Ottomans were in charge in the Balkans area, such things certainly did occur.
What I hear you saying is that if a church falls into their hands by legitimate means then it is OK for it to be turned into a mosque.
"legitimate" is the key word here. Its someone's property to do with as they see fit--whether you or I like it or not.
Have any Christian churhces in what was Yugoslavia been destroyed since that nation broke up? If so, how many?
A lot. However, it is an inconvenient fact for the world-view of many that the Christians in the Balkans have actually destroyed far more Christian Churches than the Muslims. You can follow the links here and read about Serbs destroying hundreds of Catholic Churches with a description of individual churches & monasteries, etc. The Catholic Croats seem to be in second place as they are listed as destroying hundreds of Serb churches & religious sites--you can read about that in this Orthodox Church report; although the Bosniak Muslims certainly contributed as well.
In Kosovo, where all the publicity is focused, although the Albanians are Johnny-come-latelies to the church destruction business as compared to their Slavic neighbors, they have chipped in as an international religious freedom group reports:
Although more than 100 [Orthodox Churches]have been damaged or destroyed since the international community took control in 1999, Forum 18 has found no evidence that anyone has been prosecuted for these attacks (just as no-one is known to have been prosecuted for Serbian paramilitary and army attacks on 215 mosques during the 1999 war). This pre-dates the March 2004 riots so another 30 should be added to the total; attacked by the Kosovo Albanians. Bishop Sopi of the Catholic Diocese of Prizren complained after the 1999 war that Serb troops occupied, damaged and looted some of his Catholic Churches, so there's a few more Christian Churches to add in.
In the Bosnian Federation Republika Srpska, the 2004 U.S. State Department Religious Freedom report says "In early post-war years, RS authorities frequently did not intervene to prevent the violent obstruction of efforts to rebuild some of the 618 mosques and 129 churches in the RS that were destroyed or significantly damaged during the 1992-1995 war." so there's some more numbers to consider.
Of course, as you can see from the above, there are also hundreds of mosques destroyed, so everybody took their hits. All in all, the Serbs clearly outperformed the other national groups in Yugoslavia in terms of dealing out destruction to both churches and mosques, but then they are the biggest group and controlled most of the military when Yugoslavia broke up.
The Patriarch of the Serb Orthodox Church sums it up pretty well: " ... so much evil has happened, even amongst ourselves. With the same sadness, and shame, we hear about the destruction of Roman Catholic churches and Muslim mosques. Our heads bowed in sorrow, we pray to God that these troubles will finally end, never again to be repeated anywhere in the world, and never again to befall any nation.
Good reply. Thank you for taking the time.
And your comments on Haradinaj as Albanian hero are?
He is to the Albanians!
And the way in which he went to the Hague--immediately upon indictment while telling the citizenry to remain calm--has won him some positive mention--here's from Secretary Rice's State Department spokesman (which seems to me about right):
March 8, 2005
STATEMENT BY RICHARD BOUCHER, SPOKESMAN
Indictment of Ramush Haradinaj
[U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE, Office of the Spokesman] - The United States welcomes Ramush Haradinaj's decision to resign from his Prime Minister post, and his expressed plan to go voluntarily to The Hague. His actions demonstrate his deep concern for the future of Kosovo and its people.
The United States and the international community remain committed to supporting the development of Kosovo's institutions in accordance with UN Security Council Resolution 1244 and to the continued implementation of the “Standards for Kosovo.” Ensuring that the rule of law extends to all citizens is an essential component of the Standards.
2005 is an important year for the aspirations of the people of Kosovo. In order to receive a positive assessment from the Comprehensive Review later this year and to begin a process to determine its future status, Kosovo must preserve peace and continue to work to implement the Standards. The people of Kosovo will enjoy the full support of the United States in those efforts. Violence will not be tolerated and will have negative consequences for the outcome of the review and for Kosovo's future. We will continue to work with Kosovo's provisional government on these issues.
The United States remains committed to supporting the work of the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia. We call upon all parties in Kosovo and throughout the Balkans to cooperate with the Tribunal, including apprehending and transferring all indictees to The Hague, as a prerequisite for full integration into Euro-Atlantic institutions. We urge all individuals indicted by the Tribunal to act with dignity and in accordance with their obligations in reporting to the Tribunal without further delay.
Mark, many high positioned officials from Serbia went volunteraly to Hague as well, and their decision was praised by Church and Government.
However, I sense that you're looking at this from different point of view.
That's great. But Nennsy, surely you can see the difference between someone who voluntarily resigns as Prime Minister and reports to court the day after being indicted versus people who take 5 or 6 years to get there and must be "encouraged" with veiled threats of arrest and stipends for families and so on. And further, there are still many indicted war criminals running free in Serbia or the RS.
With the US with-holding aid, NATO denying entry into Partnership for Peace, and the EU entry assessment along with the future status of Kosovo negotiations approaching, the government of Serbia is starting to cooperate.
It would be nice for the Serbs to try their own war-criminals, but so far that hasn't happened. And after Djndjic was assassinated and then Kostunica almost lost his job just for admitting the Serbs committed war crimes; I understand the reluctance of the Serb leadership to take action. The current tactic of giving their families gifts and lauding the indicted persons as heroes going to the Hague as a sacrifice for the good of the country seems to be working pretty well in encouraging surrenders. Plus it sells well to those in Serbia who still haven't figured out the reality of their country's malfeasance under Milosevic.
Mark, when we had elections in Serbia Radicals won. There was a HUGE threat that they will be able to form a Government with majority seats.
To prevent this, Democratic block started making coaltions and they entered as well into coalition with Milosevic's party (at least what was left from it). I don't need to mention what kind of reaction this caused.
However, SPS said we will support you under one condition.
"No arrests for those charged by Hague, or we will withdraw from the Government". If they withdrow, the Government would colapse, so State decided (knowing that they MUST cooperate with Hague), to stimulate the volunter surrenders.
The formula seemed to work, and that is fine with me.
I prefer this over Radical Government. In the end it comes to this.
P.S. Haradinaj's surrender was very well organized by International Community. He'll be set free soon.
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