Pray for Terri, Pray hard!
"Pray for Terri, Pray hard!"
Yes, I am.
KING: We'll spend our final moments discussing the Schiavo matter. In Atlanta is Reverend Jesse Jackson, back with us, he was with us earlier. Here in Los Angeles, George Thornally. In Denver, Colorado is Patrick Furlong. In Syracuse, New York is Reverend Barry Lynn.
Let me get to George Thornally's story first. You became completely paralyzed at age 16, possibly because of polio, assumed you would either die or survive as a vegetable. You survived, recovered, wrote the story in the book "Georgy Boy: Help, I'm Not a Vegetable." Are you saying because of your case, the feeding tube should remain?
GEORGE THORNALLY, RECOVERED FROM PARALYSIS: I think every case is probably different, but I can tell you this, in my case, as a vegetable, I was fighting for life with every part of my being, soul, brain.
KING: Were you aware of what was going on around you?
THORNALLY: Very aware, but I could not even grimace in pain.
KING: You were in pain?
THORNALLY: Terrific pain.
KING: But the neurosurgeons say about Terri, she is not in pain, she has been brain dead...
THORNALLY: Well, how would they know that? Have they ever been a vegetable?
KING: They showed a brain scan.
THORNALLY: Oh, well, that's a pretty gross determination, isn't it?
KING: They don't know, they don't even know how -- did you make any wish to have the thing pulled?
THORNALLY: No. I worry about all these young people who are saying in perfect health, if anything happens to me, please pull the plug. And I want to tell you, when you're in that condition, you're fighting for life and you don't want anybody pulling any plug.
KING: So you wouldn't -- you would reinstate her plug?
THORNALLY: Well, to answer your question, I would say yes.
KING: OK. Now, Patrick Furlong, your 82-year-old mother suffered cardiac failure during hospitalization for abdominal distress. You did not want her -- what's the story? You did not want her resuscitated?
PATRICK FURLONG, DYING MOTHER WAS RESUSCITATED DESPITE A DNR ORDER: No, Larry. As a matter of fact, we were very clear for many years. This is a case where all the T's were crossed and the I's were dotted. We had DNRs in place. And she was taken to the hospital for, as you say, abdominal distress, and about 10 hours later, she suffered cardiac and respiratory failure. And completely contrary to all of the paperwork and her wishes, she was actually resuscitated. And she had a very, very painful and terrifying 10-day experience until we finally -- finally let her go.
KING: It was your decision?
FURLONG: Yes, it was.
KING: Hard to make?
FURLONG: Doubly hard, really, because when you take the time and the trouble to put your DNRs in place, and get all of the end of life directives where they need to be, you don't rehearse emotionally to have to deal with it, because you've done the homework, it's done, it's over, you don't have to worry about that. And here you are suddenly faced with this horrendous decision.
KING: George, did you just wake up?
THORNALLY: After almost six months. I had a stellar experience about 3:00 in the morning, during which my body just mended and my brain knitted together, and I knew that I was going to live and that I was going to be all right.
KING: What did the doctors say?
THORNALLY: Well, everyone was shocked, because in the morning I pulled myself up, and when they came in, I said "hello, what are we having for breakfast?"
KING: Barry Lynn, what's wrong with the president's statement, err on the side of life?
REV. BARRY LYNN, EXEC. DIRECTOR, AMERICANS UNITED FOR SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE: I think the problem here, Larry, is that the Congress should never have gotten involved in this case. The religious right should not have gotten involved in Mrs. Schiavo's case. And with all due respect to my friend, Jesse Jackson, he should not have been involved here in this way.
It's trying to second-guess the legal and the medical judgments that have now been reviewed by 24 different courts and 24 attempted legal interventions. I think this is a civil rights issue. The question is whether Americans have a right to say no to life- sustaining therapies, whether that is a feeding tube, or a ventilator, or a kidney machine, and if they can't speak for themselves, who can we listen to? The courts have said Michael Schiavo have made that decision. People have challenged that decision in court, but I think now that all these processes have gone on, it's time to let Mrs. Schiavo go in the care of that hospice, which has been nothing but kind to her throughout this entire process.
KING: Jesse, why are you involved?
JACKSON: Well, because I feel passionate about her life. I feel that she has been dealt a severe injustice. As a minister, I have dealt with these cases before. A friend (UNINTELLIGIBLE) a few months ago, his son called and said, dad is in extreme stage of cancer. And at that time, he was taking Demerol, because of pain. He slid into a coma. And then, his pulse began to drop -- it was clear at that time that he was dying. We pulled the plug and he died.
In the case of Terri, here's a case where they pulled the tube for feeding and water, now we're just waiting and watching her starve and dehydrate to death. On the one hand, we have food and water, but we will not give it to her. And so we're looking at her there, waiting for her to die. That is very cruel. And I'm convinced that the law is important, but the law must be informed by mercy to be just.
KING: What's your last resolve here? Are you trying to get the Senate to do something?
JACKSON: We're really, we're praying for a miracle. There are some senators who are now working, trying to get an emergency legislation to get the tube in her while they litigate and keep debating. I don't know why we're so impatient.
Now, of course, I think on the one hand, we keep fighting for her life. But an issue beyond her life, we're being informed about this tragedy, there are those who embrace her; we must also now embrace long-term health care. What's not embraced are others in the same or similar predicament. So even (UNINTELLIGIBLE), we're being healed by her strifes.
LYNN: Jesse, the truth is, this is a woman who's been through 15 years of this. At some point -- and this is not a technical issue, this is a moral question -- at some point, one has to say, the system has done all it can do; now we have to take the caregivers there and let them do what is necessary in these final days, and to continue to politicize this in any way, from the left, the right or the center, is a terrible addition to a tragedy that's gone on... (CROSSTALK)
KING: Hold it, Jesse. Let me get the thoughts of...
JACKSON: That is immoral, and unethical, and unnecessary.
KING: Let me get the thoughts of our two guests. Patrick Furlong, what do you think?
FURLONG: I feel -- my heart goes out to Michael Schiavo. My heart goes out to the Schindlers. I honestly cannot imagine the agony that they're going through. They're a tug toy being pulled backwards and forth.
KING: George?
THORNALLY: The Appellate Court in Atlanta is comprised of three justices, one of which dissented. It's not widely reported.
KING: It was 2-1.
THORNALLY: Yes, and he, in his dissent, he started off quote, "I strongly dissent." And then he explained that the law has another aspect to it, that came to us from England with the common law called equity. When a court is asked to do something, it's asked to do equity. Equity allows flexibility, it allows the exercise of compassion.
So the court could have legally...
KING: But the vote was 2-1, and that's the way we live in this country, you know...
THORNALLY: Right, right, right.
KING: Majority rules in courts.
THORNALLY: But the legal system is not bereft of the opportunity to express compassion.
KING: Jesse, frankly, is there any hope for your cause?
JACKSON: Well, it's hope against hope. We pray for a miracle. What pains me so deeply is how we can become so callous about life that we can look at a woman, who after 10 days of no food and no water, she still has vital signs. You would be dying if you didn't have food and water for 12 days. Now, why in that condition, they don't allow her to have water for her lips, her parched lips?
LYNN: Reverend Jackson...
(CROSSTALK)
JACKSON: ... seems to me, that's just cold.
LYNN: Reverend Jackson, the compassion question was raised. The challenges have been made. These are not justices who just look at the statute books and have no compassion and no concern. The point is, they've evaluated the judgments, the medical judgments.
You and I are not doctors, we are not judges. We have never examined this woman. We have only to expect that the best has been done and that the best needs to be continue to be done in her life.
KING: All right, gentlemen, got to stop, we're out of time, but we'll do more on this tomorrow night. Also tomorrow night, we'll do more on the death of Johnny Cochran. We hope to have more visits with George Thornally and Patrick Furlong as well.
Thank you very much, George.
THORNALLY: Thank you.
KING: And Reverend Jesse Jackson and Reverend Barry Lynn.