It's not our fault.
Posted on 03/29/2005 8:42:48 AM PST by Grzegorz 246
OK My blood boiled when YOU said that Poles murdered with hunger 100, 000 Russian POWs in 1920.==
It is known fact but I however cann't be sure about number 100 thousands. There wasn't only russians but many nationalities like ukranians and bellorussians and even lathvians. Infamous lathvian rifle division (the pretorian guards of bolshevicks) partially participated in Tuikhuchevsky army.
Numbers of army of Tukhuchevsky (BTW do you know he was ethnic polack too as Rokosovkii?) was if I don't mistake about half of million. Total number of Red Army at those times was about 3 millions.
SO about 100 thousands got into captivity and disappear! Historians doesn't know exsctly where ended those people.
So in Russia here is opinion that Katyn massacre Stalin did as revenge for those 100 thousands. (Stalin was very vergeful as true georgian. Recall how he did with Trotskii. Got him even in Mexico!)
You may get angry again but until Poland clears what happened with those POWs this opinion will be prevail.
Anyway we can discuss any difficult question here. Till we discuss we don't fight:).
Be safe in Rome. God bless you too.
"They didn't kill the most hated man in Poland, sacrificed their own lives, just not to kill a baby!!!
All the rebels were then sent to life to Siberia. :-("
Because they were noble people, noble in their hearts. That is why no one called and no one calls them terrorists. As to Siberia, there were lots of Russian bones there too...
ms_68.
I think you still miss an important point of discussion. This discussion is not simply about Poles role in WWII, but about human nature in general and how it behaves when given a harsh choice of brutal and totalitarian regimes. The whole point of my discussion is that totalitarian murderous regimes (like Hitler or Stalin) turn people under their foot who did not actively resist it (be it Germany, Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, or Estonia, France, etc.) either to bystanders, collaborators or victims of its crimes. Collaboration with crimes could take a lot of different forms. I.e. in Russia/USSR, during Stalin reign, ordinary people were encouraged to rat on their neighbors, listen to each other conversations to detect any sign of "Anti Soviet Agitation" and turn their fellow neighbors to secret police. Millions were arbitrarily arrested, sent to NKVD prisons from which there were usually two roads--one to firing squad and the other to GULAG.
Very often Victims and Collaborators could be the same people. I.e. lower rank Communist Party Official could rat on his/her superior to NKVD, accusing the superior of either anti-Soviet agitation (i.e. Joke about Stalin was considered Anti-Soviet Agitation) or not active enough work with masses and other ridiculous accusations. NKVD would arrest this superior and either shoot him/her send him/her to GULAG without any trial. The lower rank Communist Party official then took former Superior position until somebody else would not rat out to NKVD on him/her. And so on and on. In Stalin Russia, neighbors rat on their neighbors. I.e. I heard that Sasha tell Vasya "Anti-Soviet Anecdote where Comrade Stalin was ridiculed". Then Expect NKVD come for this Sasha and Vasya (if Vasya did not rat to NKVD first) and threw them to NKVD Prison for "Anti-Soviet Agitation". Then somebody would rat on me (i.e. Sergey is either telling Jokes about Communist Party or shows disloyalty to Communist Party by not attending Communist meetings at work or at school where "enemies of people" are denounced and Stalin is praised). Then I should expect NKVD come for me, torture me to the point until I either die or sign the papers that I'm a Spy of several foreign Intelligence agencies or an "Agent of International Imperialism". Then I would be either shot or thrown to GULAG. That what's happened to millions and millions of people.
The totalitarian regimes corrupted many ordinary and otherwise normal people into becoming their collaborators or simple bystanders and witnesses of the crimes. It's hard to realize this but that's exactly what happened be it in Russia, Poland or anywhere else. It's hard to face the truth, but majority of people did not actively resist either Stalin or Hitler, but just tried to get by. Literally tens of Millions of Russian/Soviet citizens where hypnothized by Stalin and when they heard how their friends and neighbors disappear in NKVD/GULAG mill, they thought it was "a mistake" or that their friends could be in fact guilty. Most of people did not realize that anyone could be next or simply chose not to think about it. It's hard to comprehend, but Stalin was viewed as a BIG DADDY--sometimes harsh, but great ruler by lots of Russian/Soviet People. My mom recalls her conversations with her step-father (my step grandpa) in 1950's. He was Soviet Army geological officer and he honestly believed that Stalin was great for Russia/USSR (with all his excesses). She also remembers her neighbors--GULAG and WWII survivors and truly believing Communists who still celebrated the anniversary of 1917 Revolution that brought Communists (then Bolsheviks) to power even after going through GULAGS. These stories are unfortunately not unusual. Too many people really believed in Communist fairy tales of great life ahead and that all the terrible brutality of the regime toward its own people is for a greater good. In Fact, Stalin was a replacement of God. My father told me how his entire second grade class (8 year old kids) lead by a teacher burst into tears on the news of Stalin death. This happened all over Soviet Union although practically everyone was either one or knew someone who went through the Stalin terror mill. My father's own grandpa (my great grandpa) was NKVD prison survivor. He was one of those who went under the mill of 1937-1938 terror as bodyguard of one of the top Soviet Army officers arrested during Stalin purges. He refused to sign the papers that he was "an enemy of people" and he was beaten very bad (signing the paper that you were "enemy of the people" meant that not only you could be shot or put to GULAG, but your entire family could be arrested or exiled) . He crushed the chair on the NKVD interrogator head after interrogator start beating him, and then a bunch of NKVD soldiers burst in and beat him to the point of uncosciousness. My great grandma had a fortunate connection to someone who knew Kruschev (then top Communist official of Ukraine) and because of that (and also through someone who was freed from NKVD prison), she was able to secure his release. She told me how he lied on his abdomen for months because he simply could not lie on his back--it was simply impossible with ribs broken and bruises. Then she told me how great grandpa said about blamed himself for the rest of his life for fighting for the Red Army during Russian Civil War thus helping bring Communists to power.
Nazis used quite similar tactics of appealing to fear and other human lowest instincts or illusion and setting people against one another. Nazis had a goal of completely destroying Jews. In any country they went, they exploited anti-Semitic stereotypes and encouraged local populations to turn their Jewish friends and neighbors in. They also encouraged locals to commit the crimes against Jews (pogroms, lootings, killings). Definitely NOT everybody heeded this call and remained decent and moral people who helped Jews or at least refused to participate in slaughter. But there were quite a lot of people who did and they were found all over Nazi Occupied Europe and Russia/USSR. They were not only previously low lives. Among them there were previously ordinary people who when tempted to commit legalized crimes or put in harsh conditions (either collaborate with criminal regime or risk death, torture or imprisonment) either out of fear for their lives/ the lives of their families or hatred of Jews (or both) chose to collaborate with Nazis in one way or the other. Collaboration did not necessarily mean serving in Nazi units (Wermacht, SS, Nazi Police forces, etc.). It could mean simply turning the fellow Jewish neighbors in to GESTAPO or local pro-Nazi Police for reward. It could mean to participate in anti-Jewish pogrom as a cheering witness, as someone who set Jewish property on fire, or as someone who take some valuables from Jews being killed or thrown to Ghettos or concentration camps (they are dead anyway, why not take some of their valuables for us). There were also quite a few people who turned anti-Nazi Resistance fighters in for reward when pressed/threatened or given a reward. There were also coercion tactics to join variety of pro-Nazi units or cooperate with Nazi authorities if you want you or your family members be safe. Such people were found all over Nazi Occupied Europe/fmr. USSR--Germany, France, Poland, Chechoslovakia, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Belarus, Ukraine, Russia--practically everywhere the Nazis were in control.
Of course, most of people were neither active collaborators, nor active resistance fighters. They were often simply witnesses or bystanders trying to live ordinary lives. They simply could refuse the help of a friend (Jew or resistance fighter) to help out of fear or they simply get by turning a blind eye to what happened around them and pretend that nothing horrible is happening. It's hard to accept, but this is what happened to many many people.
This is not an accusation of entire people based on their ethnicity or national origin--it's an honest and harsh look at what happened in History. In Jewish Ghettos of Nazi Occupied Europe there was also Jewish Police who assisted Nazis in slaughtering and abusing their fellow Jews so they could be slaughtered later or maybe allowed to live as Nazi servants--that's also a terrible reality. The Movie Schindler List shows it very well.
I honestly don't know how would I behave if I were living under Nazism and Stalinism and had a choice of either cooperating with these regimes or risk being thrown to Concentration Camp or killed. I simply don't even want to think about it and I do not want to find out.
I was honest with myself and Russian/Soviet history and I think you can if you try to look more objectively on the history of Poland if you want too. I think we talked more than enough and I agree that it's time to close this topic.
Today Russia gives preferncial like discount prices for oil and gas to Armenia, Bellorussia, until now to Ukraine.
Yestoday russian troops helped some countries to become and support independent. For example, Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia.
In WW2 soviet/ russian troops fred from Hitler lot of countries.
Despite you say that soviet camp wasn't better then Hitler's. I disagree. Look on your country.
Been in soviet camp helped her to accquire lot of lands which never belonged to Poland before.
Soviet camp was destroyed by russians and Poland was let free.
I think that your country has to fell herself lucky and good today. And be grateful to those who let her free.
It is reward isn't it? Poland was rewarded by freedom but not won it in battle right?
If you don't know you check it.
Soviet marshal Tukhachevskii then another soviet marshal Rokossovskii were both ethnic polacks.
The founder of CheKa-OGPU-NKVD was ethnic polack Felix Dzherzhinskii. His deputy and successor Vatslav Menzhinskii was ethnic polack too.
You see now?
You pathetically attack ethnic russians for deeds of soviet's but don't see that those guys who did to Poland lot of bad things were not russians at all.
WHY ethnic russians has to answer for deed of ethnic georgian Stalin, his deputy Beria (ethnic georgian too)?
Or why ethnic russians has to be guilty for deeds of ethnic polack Tukhachevskii or Rokossovskii? Latter at least was fine general of WW2.
If you put on table of guilt the ETHNICITY of those who commanded Soviet Union then I just follow your lead.
I just show to you that if you base on ethnicity then you deliberately or not attack ethnic russians wrongly.
I try to show you that The ETHNICITY or nationality was nothing to do with Soviet Union and his policy.
BTW did you notice that the name of state wasn't Russia? There was commie Poland but no commie Russia. Why that?
Because the Soviet Union was created as ALTERNATIVE of Russia. Was created by many nationalities and ethnicities not by russians.
Just tip for you if you REAALY want to know what happened:
Russians lost Civil War 1917-21. What was that war and why russian national White Movement lost against international Reds?
I would say just opposite:))).
Russia is a black sheep of Polish family, but some day you will see the light and become a part of Poland once again.
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