Posted on 03/24/2005 6:00:38 AM PST by John Jorsett
France's military reputation has taken a beating over the last three years due to their attitudes towards Iraq. Whether or not this record is deserved is up for debate. A famous website, set up as a “Google bomb,” so that when one searches for French military victories and hits the “I’m Feeling Lucky” button, takes potshots at France, particularly citing the twentieth century. But the REAL story is much different.
First of all, the Battle of the Virginia Capes, from September 5-9, 1781 was an unambiguous win for France. This is important for Americans to keep in mind – this was the battle that sealed the fate of the British garrison at Yorktown (and thus American independence). So, France has achieved victory at least once, and it mattered big time for the United States.
In the 20th Century, the French record is also much better than some people would lead a person to believe. In World War I, the French did not fold up. If anything, the French carried a lot of the burden of the ground war from 1914-1917, halting the German invasion at the Marne. The French also outfought the Germans at Verdun in 1916, holding the line against a vigorous German offensive.
In 1918, the French forces took part in major offensives in the Balkans and in France itself. Both of those were victories. This came after France played a major part in repelling the powerful 1918 offensive by Germany. In other words, the French did their fair share in World War I. Only natural, since France was where most of the fighting occurred. It was Marshal Ferdinand Foch (commanding French Forces in the Second Battle of Marne) who said, “My center is giving way, I cannot move. Situation excellent, I shall attack.”
In World War II, France is often judged by the 1940 German offensive. This is unfair in some aspects. France had 3 armored divisions – Germany had 10, which was a decisive edge in one of the earliest mechanized campaigns in history. After France surrendered, Free French forces took part in the African battles, and played major roles in Operation Dragoon (the landings in southern France in August, 1944). The French also carried out the liberation of Strasbourg, and took part in the final defeat of Nazi Germany.
Since World War II, France has taken part in the 1956 Suez War, which was a military victory. France only backed off due to political pressure from the United States and USSR. France also did not lose the Algerian War of Independence from 1954-1962 on any battlefield, but instead in terms of politics. The only real loss was the Indochina War, which was highlighted by the Battle of Dien Bien Phu.
France today has a reasonably capable military (they operate the only CVN outside the United States Navy, and the Rafale is one of the best combat aircraft in service at the present time). French forces recently carried out a brilliant operation in Cote d’Ivoire, in which aircraft, that had launched attacks on UN peacekeepers, were quickly and efficiently destroyed.
France has, in these wars, lost as many as two million killed in action. Far more often than not, France has won major battles in the past century, and in some cases, paid a dear price to do so. French military forces have gotten a bit of a bum rap as a result of the weasel-like positions of certain French political leaders. – Harold C. Hutchison (hchutch@ix.netcom.com)
It bears pointing out that the French based their opposition to the liberation of Iraq from a position of righteous morality - but when the dust settled we discovered it was more about their business contracts with Saddam and the Oil for Food ripoff. The mockery of France is well-deserved.
If we go into medieval history, of course, the French usually won their wars. There is a REASON why France is by far the biggest country in Western Europe, and had a population second only to Russia's until the 19th Century.
We should remember, for example, that the Norman conquest a was the conquest of Anglo-Saxon England by the French nobility, and that the Hundred Years' War with England, which France won decisively in the end, was a fight between the domestic French and English French nobility. Richard the Lion Heart was not really the Lion Heart, he was Coeur de Lion, a French nobleman who happened to be the King of England.
We should remember that the reconquista of Spain and the First Crusade started out as largely French affairs.
Moving on into the Renaissance, Reformation and Age of Reason, we should remember that the French, again were a military behemoth. Out of the picture for half a century due to civil wars of religion, when the French re-emerged, it was the theretofore invincible Spanish tercios that were smashed to pieces by the French army at Rocroi.
It is interesting that Americans who know history generally know the names of a couple of great English victories over the French: Agincourt, Crecy and Waterloo come to mind. But hardly anyone seems to know any of the great battles in which the French defeated the British. Hastings and Orleans come to mind. Indeed, one comes away with the impression that the English never lost and the French never won, when actually, the French conquered Britain and essentially set up modern England, and at the end of the day, in the five grand strategic wars between France and England (the Norman Conquest, the 100 Years War, the Wars of the Age of Kings, the American Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars), three were decisive French victories, one was a draw with significant French territorial gains, and one was a decisive English victory.
Truth is, Americans have been mad at the French since de Gaulle pulled out of NATO, and with good reason too! De Gaulle, Mitterand's refusal of US overflight enroute to Libya, and French skulduggery concerning Iraq have all made France persona non grata in the US. And, of course, for a military society like the US, engaged in important hot wars abroad, it is important psychologically to denigrate the capacities of your political opponents.
1940 was inglorious for France.
But let's be clear. In 1941, the US lost a whole Army without much of a fight too, in the Philippines, and lost almost the whole Navy at Pearl Harbor in a surprise attack. France should have performed better in 1940, but the French were simply rolled over by surprise. Let's remember that the English were unable to hold the Germans back either, and fled for the Channel, leaving their equipment behind at Dunkirk.
The French, English, Russians and Americans all were caught in nasty surprises by enemies using new tactics, and they all got rolled by the enemy in the opening campaigns. The difference is that England had the strategic depth of the English Channel, Russia had, well, the endless expanses of Russia to fall back into. America had the strategic depth of the Pacific Ocean. Paris is 100 miles from the border where the Germans crossed. When the French and British Armies were surprised by the new tactics and rolled, France had nowhere to fall back upon.
All that said, French forces fighting Eisenhower in North Africa was an utter disgrace. Every Frenchman involved in fighting those battles on the German side should have been shot, and the whole Vichy collaborationist regime probably should have been hanged. France's failure on the battlefield in 1940 was comparable to the loss of the US Army in the Philippines and the US Navy at Pearl. But the political collaboration of the French with the Nazis, and the export of French Jewry are marks on French honor, black as hell, that can never be expunged.
For perspective, Benito MUSSOLINI and Italy did not cooperate as much with Hitler's Holocaust as the French did. Despite being an Axis power, Mussolini's Italy only sent about 5000 Jews to their deaths, and many of them only after being directly seized. By contrast, supposedly Allied France shipped cooperated in the export of 40,000 + Frenchmen to their deaths. It is a badge of dishonor to France that the Axis, Fascist government of Italy was less enthusiastically cooperative with the Nazi holocaust than the government of France. That was inexcusable.
Here is the way I put it: walk around Paris and observe carefully. Everything that is truly great in France was built by the Kings, or by the Third Republic. The Kings have all departed, and the manhood of the Third Republic bled to death in Flanders in World War I.
What the French of today are, are like the Italians of 600 AD, dwelling in the grand ruins of a lost Empire that they themselves do not have the capacity to recreated.
France was glorious when ruled by her Kings.
France ruled by her modern accountants is a shrivelled thing dwelling in the dinosaur bones of glorious civilization that bled to death at Verdun.
After the war of 1812, they worked back door deals with Britain during the Treaty of Paris process.
The city that was "too beautiful" to defend from Nazi siege? Sorry, but I will never set foot in Paris. ;)
"American bomber crews that bailed out over France were routinely executed by French partisans who blamed them for the destruction of their country."
Routinely?
What are you talking about?
The French Underground spirited Sixty-THOUSAND (60,000) downed allied pilots to safety.
Eisenhower said that the French Resistance behind enemy lines was worth the equivalent of 6 divisions.
This is calumny.
That it may have happened sometimes is probably true.
But routinely?
Non, monsieur, that is not true.
The Resistance was too small when it had to fight, and too large when the war was over from all of those who claimed to have been in it ("I looked crosseyed at the Germans as they fled, therefore I was in the Resistance" -that sort of thing). But it was brave, and allied, and immeasurably assisted allied aircrews, quite a few of whom were French, by the way.
WWII there is simply no excuse. Yes, France had 3 armored divisions to Germany's ten. But they also had a large number of independent tank brigades, and various tank battalions. In fact, they had more and generally better tanks than than did the Germans. One of the few French generals to actually put up a real fight was DeGaulle leading one of those tank brigades. 'Course, he launched his counterattack in violation of orders....
Since WWII, they managed to win at Suez against token opposition, and to "dominate" the Ivory Coast. Wow. They were completely clobbered by the Viet Minh, and, when they showed up for the Gulf War, asked not to be put into heavy action.
Sorry, but I'm not impressed.
Only problem with the Maginot Line was that they defended it with too many troops. The Maginot line was well-built and a good investment.
And actually the Belgian border WASN'T wide open; the French heavily manned it and immediately dashed into Belgium when the German invasion began in 1940.
The one part that was "wide open" was a narrow area in the Ardennes across from Luxembourg; of course, the Germans shot through there behind the French forces dashing into Belgium.
Thanks for the interesting post, Count.
I've seen accounts that the French plannned for the Ardennes as a "forced" avenue of approach and viewed it as a kill box? Is it true, and if so, where did they fail?
The Battle of Monte Cassino wasn't in Africa. The landings at Casablanca, Oran and Algiers were. It was only after the French opposed, but were unable to defeat, the Allied landings that they switched sides.
They're out here as part of the Coalition fighting Operation Enduring Freedom.
'Scuse me, but the partisans routinely lost around 2-3 people for each airman they rescued; and they rescued tens of thousands. That's a heck of a sacrifice.
Bir Hacheim occurred some six months before Operation Torch, and it was in North Africa.
Vicomte13, you give the FRENCH credit for the NORMAN Conquest of England. Normandy was not France, was not a part of France, was in fact the sworn enemy of France. And Normandy was founded by Vikings, whose leader, Rollo, founded the line of Dukes of Normandy. The Normans would have been the first to deny that they were French.
The reality is that about half the froggies in WWII were sympathetic to National Socialism and half of that number welcomed the German Occupation ... hence their less than stellar performance.
Normans? French Nobility?
I thought the Normans were North Men (Vikings) who took that area away from the French people living there.
So if we want to go back in time the whole Normans-Anglo Saxon thing really has nothing to do with the "French".
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