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Poland lobbies Russia over Katyn
BBC News ^ | Wednesday, 23 March, 2005 | Adam Easton

Posted on 03/23/2005 10:57:33 AM PST by lizol

Poland lobbies Russia over Katyn By Adam Easton BBC News, Warsaw

More than 21,000 army officers and intellectuals were executed at Katyn The Polish parliament has called on Moscow to publish the names of any surviving perpetrators of a World War II massacre. Members of parliament passed a resolution demanding the killing of thousands of Polish soldiers in the Katyn Forest be recognised as genocide.

Moscow only took responsibility for the killings in 1990, after previously blaming it on the Nazis.

Polish legislators stood for a minute's silence before passing the resolution.

Members of the victims' families were also present to mark the 65th anniversary of the massacre.

Classified files

The resolution stated that only a full disclosure of the truth and a condemnation of the perpetrators could lead to improved relations between Poland and Russia.

Moscow ended a lengthy inquiry into the crime last year, which concluded the killings were not genocide. Poland then set up its own investigation, but Moscow has refused to hand over many files which are still classified.

Both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union invaded Poland at the start of World War II.

The Soviet secret police arrested millions of Poles. Many of them ended up in Siberian labour camps, but more than 21,000 army officers and intellectuals were executed on Stalin's direct orders in the Katyn Forest near the city of Smolensk.

The Nazis discovered the mass graves in 1943, but Moscow only admitted Soviet guilt 47 years later.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: genocide; katyn; nkvd; poland; polish; russia; russian; soviet; sovietunion; ww2
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1 posted on 03/23/2005 10:57:34 AM PST by lizol
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To: gabaseball; free_european; rmlew; TonyWojo; RushCrush; axel f; varon; Ciexyz; 1rudeboy; ...
Eastern European ping list


FRmail me to be added or removed from this Eastern European ping list

2 posted on 03/23/2005 10:58:13 AM PST by lizol
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To: ms_68

Ping


3 posted on 03/23/2005 10:58:35 AM PST by lizol
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To: lizol

The Soviet perps should have received the same fate the Nazi War Criminals received at Nuremberg.


4 posted on 03/23/2005 10:58:56 AM PST by dfwgator (It's sad that the news media treats Michael Jackson better than our military.)
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To: lizol

It was a massive war crime on par with Babi Yar or any of the Nazi death camps without doubt, but it doesn't qualify as genocide.

The Russkies' motivation was not the extermination of the Polish race/ethnicity, only to purge Polish leadership (military and civilian) and replace it with their own. After all, Poles were and are fellow Slavs.


5 posted on 03/23/2005 11:03:32 AM PST by Zhangliqun (What are intellectuals for but to complexify the obvious?)
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To: dfwgator

I have no doubts about it. But who's going to judge the victor?


6 posted on 03/23/2005 11:04:03 AM PST by lizol
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To: dfwgator; lizol

Instead they continue to be lionised as heroes and great men.


7 posted on 03/23/2005 11:04:23 AM PST by free_european
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To: lizol

ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


8 posted on 03/23/2005 11:05:15 AM PST by bandleader
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To: Zhangliqun

Do you think what Pol - Pot and his comrades did in Cambodia was a genocide or not?


9 posted on 03/23/2005 11:05:42 AM PST by lizol
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To: Zhangliqun
The Russkies' motivation was not the extermination of the Polish race/ethnicity, only to purge Polish leadership (military and civilian) and replace it with their own. After all, Poles were and are fellow Slavs.

"With the Germans we lose our lives, with the Soviets we lose our souls." - General Wladyslaw Anders

10 posted on 03/23/2005 11:06:07 AM PST by dfwgator (It's sad that the news media treats Michael Jackson better than our military.)
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To: lizol

And one reason the Soviets wanted to make darn sure they kept Poland under their control long after the war.


11 posted on 03/23/2005 11:07:31 AM PST by dfwgator (It's sad that the news media treats Michael Jackson better than our military.)
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To: lizol

Ah,yes, I remember this, they were slaughted by the Germans in the summer time wearing their winter uniforms. Atleast that was the story provided by the Russians at the time. "It was a cold summer" according to the Commies. They denied it even though papers found on the bodies showed it happened during the Russian occupation.


12 posted on 03/23/2005 11:08:00 AM PST by Bringbackthedraft (BBTD is back after 5 mos absence.)
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To: dfwgator

In general yes, but "some" lost their lives too.


13 posted on 03/23/2005 11:15:43 AM PST by lizol
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To: Zhangliqun
I recommend you to read this:
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide

Especially article 2 - which gives an international definition of genocide.
14 posted on 03/23/2005 11:21:57 AM PST by lizol
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To: lizol
If his intent was to wipe out and entire tribe or ethnicity, yes. If it was to wipe out potential enemies, then no. That doesn't make it even the tiniest bit less evil -- and that is my point.

The UN has used the "fact" that the Darfur massacres don't technically qualify as genocide as an excuse not to do anything about it. I say who the hell cares whether it's technically genocide? Wherever people are being dislodged from the homes, turned into refugees and hunted down like rabid dogs in such numbers, the strong of the world must rescue them and haggle about the specific kind of mass murder when the history books are written.

15 posted on 03/23/2005 11:48:44 AM PST by Zhangliqun (What are intellectuals for but to complexify the obvious?)
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To: lizol

I take it this definition is supposed to be contradictory to my point? It seems to mirror my definition perfectly.


16 posted on 03/23/2005 11:52:01 AM PST by Zhangliqun (What are intellectuals for but to complexify the obvious?)
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To: Zhangliqun
If his intent was to wipe out and entire tribe or ethnicity, yes. If it was to wipe out potential enemies, then no.

And if the intent is some kind of "social engineering" - destroying (killing) a very important part of a particular society to make it easier to build a "proper" model of society of the rest (Homo sovieticus). Don't you think such an action is a genocide?
It was exactly the same with Pol - Pot in Camodia and with Soviets in Katyn, just the scale was different (22.000 in Katyn compared to 2 millions in Cambodia). Both Soviets and Pol Pot wanted to create New Order, eliminating "human obstacles".

Your logic leads to the conclusion, that communists have not committed any genocide - as they murdered people generally not because of their ethnicity, but because of their class.
So those several dozens of millions of victims was not a genocide?? Oh boy!
17 posted on 03/23/2005 12:00:51 PM PST by lizol
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To: Zhangliqun
genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group,

Soviets wanted to destroy Polish social elite - because they were Polish social elite. Don't you think, that it was to destroy (...) in part a national group.

A very important part.

18 posted on 03/23/2005 12:07:01 PM PST by lizol
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To: Bringbackthedraft

Apparently the victims forgot to bring up to date newspapers to their executions, since those that had papers had papers from the previous spring-which was about when their last letters went home, and graffiti dated from that time frame was later found in Soviet rail cars. Diabolically clever, those Germans


19 posted on 03/23/2005 12:08:57 PM PST by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: lizol
Soviets wanted to destroy Polish social elite - because they were Polish social elite. Don't you think, that it was to destroy (...) in part a national group?

Partially destroying a national group wasn't their goal. Let's say the Poles were somehow in a situation where they had been colonized by, I don't know, Lithuania. All the leadership and social elite of Poland was then Lithuanians. The USSR troops would have then massacred the Lithuanians and replaced them with Russians, and probably killed relatively few Poles. As the article states, intent is critical to the definition. The Russians weren't out to kill Poles for the sake of killing Poles -- they wanted to install their own government their and killing Polish leadership was the only way to do it. I concede this is hair-splitting and that is my point anyway, that the term genocide is a term that is useful only after the fact in classifying the precise motivations of the oppressors. While such horrible things are going on, the motivation behind them is irrelevant -- it must be stopped.

20 posted on 03/23/2005 12:25:37 PM PST by Zhangliqun (What are intellectuals for but to complexify the obvious?)
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