How Germans Fell for the 'Feel-Good' Fuehrer

Spiegel ^ | 03/22/05 | Jody K. Biehl

[Ditto]

What is the Right?

That is the fundamental question. Was a 1930s German Conservative the same as a 1930s or 2000 American Conservative? I would say they aren't even close to being the same animal.

Conservative in Europe in the 1930s meant conserving their historical position in society -- the old titled and landed aristocracy -- the High churches, and the industrial Moguls --- all were targets for the "Communists" who's platform was to completely gut the existing society and rebuild a new society that would have totally excluded the old order. The only thing conservative about those people was the desire to 'conserve' their own positions in society --- and possibly their lives at the hands of the "Bolsheviks".

Unlike the American Conservative of the 1930s or today, the European Conservative had no particular ideology on the size and scope of government or the concept of Natural Law that defined the limits of government authority. If anything, they were likely to favor larger government intervention in the economy and social organization since they were paternalistic in nature. Hitler gave them the best of both worlds -- a "socialist" economy that preserved their position far more securely than possible under Capitalism and a paternalist society where they were the "uber" parents.

[Getsmart64]

Germans were not Catholics...they were Lutherans....

[Sam the Sham]

Actually, the German conservative and the Marxist both shared an intellectual root in Hegel and the Hegelian dialectic. Hegel viewed the state as the highest human aspiration.

You are quite right in that the European conservative was oriented to preservation of the status quo, not any "free market" ideology.

[Sam the Sham]

Bavarians are Catholics.

[Getsmart64]

What "Churches" survived the Nazi regime "intact"? Not the Catholic Church. Thousands of priests were murdered and sent to camps, nuns raped, churches burned or confiscated (several turned into Nazi museums). Hitler hated Christianity.

The Germans were not Catholics...they were Lutherans...Hitler did have his problems with the churches...but he by no means destroyed them...I don't think Hitler "hated" Christianity...he just didn't have any use for it...he disliked the politics of religion...'tis why he was in to the occult and paganism...in which Europeans still celebrate paganistic rites to this day....

[Getsmart64]

Did he ever explain how he spent 7 years in a concentration camp? Surprised he could survive that long...

[Ditto]

The Germans were not Catholics...they were Lutherans...

Southern Germany where Hitler first came to prominence was and is, heavly Roman Catholic. Northern Germany/Prussia and the titled aristrocrats were primarily Lutherern.

[Getsmart64]

Conservative concept of Laissez-Faire

Wouldn't that be a Libertarian concept and not a Conservative concept?

[chukcha]

Tens of thousands of Catholic priests were murdered in concentration camps.

...

Just in Poland alone:

Similarly, in the German Extraordinary Pacification Campaign of 1940, some 15,000 Polish priests, teachers and political leaders were transported to Dachau , or shot in the Palmiry Forest.

http://www.asthma-drsprecace.com/paper.html

There have been several Saints made of priests who died in the concentration camps while bravely doing good deeds.

The claims you present here are greatly exagerated. I did a search on "Extraordinary Pacification". From what I read it looks that Germans vigorously persecuted Catholic clergy in the annexed territories.

From http://www.ushmm.org/education/resource/poles/poles.php?menu=/export/home/www/doc_root/education/foreducators/include/menu.txt&bgcolor=CD9544

The Roman Catholic Church was suppressed throughout Poland because historically it had led Polish nationalist forces fighting for Poland's independence from outside domination. The Germans treated the Church most harshly in the annexed regions, as they systematically closed churches there; most priests were either killed, imprisoned, or deported to the General Government. The Germans also closed seminaries and convents, persecuting monks and nuns. Between 1939 and 1945 an estimated 3,000 members of the Polish clergy were killed; of these, 1,992 died in concentration camps, 787 of them at Dachau.

3,000 sounds right, tens of thousands - bullsh*t.

[Tatze]

Their program called for the nationalization of education, health care, ...... and other major industries.

Oh, sorta like "no child left behind", prescription drugs, and faith based pork?

Because those things were passed under a Republican Administration and Congress doesnt mean they become conservative philosophies. It just means that the Republicans are passing a liberal agenda. The nationalization of education and health care is still a liberal agenda, regardless of who is passing it.

[GOP_1900AD]

Hobbes as well ...

[GOP_1900AD]

Say what? Ever been to Bavaria!?

[P_A_I]

People who try to connect fascism and socialism are failing miserably to understand that statism is simply the political culture of Europe, right and left.

Authoritarian statists of both left & right are connected by their common devotion to the State as the source of all law. Individuals are granted 'rights' by the State, in their view.

There is no such thing as a non-statist European right. There are no European "libertarians".

They may not be organized in parties, but they do exist:

European Libertarians
Address:http://libertarians.cjb.net/

[iconoclast]

It just means that the Republicans are passing a liberal agenda.

You are what, comforted? Who then are you looking to for a conservative, limited government agenda?

I believe the word/concept you should be focusing on is totalitarian. Try to shake off the simplistic two-tone Limbaugh point of view.

Liberal philosophy/ideas do not necessarily lead to totalitarianism. The paths to totalitarianism are several and beguiling.

[karnage]

Not all Germans were Lutherans. The Catholic Church had numerous bishops, priests and nuns in Germany when the Nazis came to power. Many met a grim fate. Catholics in other countries that Germany conquered during World War II - like France and Poland - were also viciously persecuted.

[Western Phil]

"Was Pastor Niemoller in trouble because he was a Christian or an anti-nazi ?"

Don't know where you are coming from, but these are pretty much the same. You can't live both philosophies at the same time.

[Western Phil]

"Germans were not Catholics...they were Lutherans...."

Not so, my guess is that they are about 50/50 nominal one or the other. In truth they were and are probably 90% or more agnostics.

[chukcha]

How do you explain the fact that the cross was featured in all German Army insignia? I am not talking about swastika.

What about military chaplains of different Christian denominations (including Catholic) in German Wehrmacht?

I think this whole idea of Hitler being anti-Christian is preposterous. The only thing he requested was that there had to be a prayer for him and Germany in all military religious ceremonies.

Side item - Germans had "Gott mit uns" (God with us) on all soldier belt buckles. So much for atheists!

[2banana]

3,000 sounds right, tens of thousands - bullsh*t.

3,000 for Poland, then add the USSR, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, France, Norway, Holland, etc.

[chukcha]

3,000 for Poland, then add the USSR, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, France, Norway, Holland, etc.

You forgot Croatia, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania - the first thing those local fascist did - they killed their priests.

And Bulgaria has the largest population of Catholic priests. Not many Catholics to speak of, but tons of Catholic priests, monks and nuns.