Posted on 03/12/2005 1:06:34 AM PST by Lauren BaRecall
YONKERS, NY, USA, March 11 (CNA) - While pro-life supporters nationwide fight for the life of brain-damaged Terri Schiavo, whose feeding tube is scheduled to be removed March 18th, New York's Franciscan Friars of the Renewal are staging a different kind of campaign.
The Yonkers chapter of the New York City-based order has started a prayer campaign asking for the intercession of Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen.
With Archbishop Sheen's help, the Friars are hoping for a miracle.
Father Andrew Apostoli C.F.R., one of the friars, said that "the late Archbishop's TV show was called Life is Worth Living, and believed very strongly in the value of every life, but the opponents to Terri Shiavo do not think that her life is worth living."
A Florida judge recently ruled in favor of Terri's husband, Michael Shiavo who plans to remove the feeding tube, which gives food and hydration to his wife.
Terri's family and other pro-life leaders are racing the clock to find a way to appeal the decision and save 41-year old Schiavo from starvation.
The Friars are asking that anyone who wishes to join them pray the following prayer:
Eternal Father, You alone grant us every blessing in Heaven and on earth, through the redemptive mission of Your Divine Son, Jesus Christ, and by the working of the Holy Spirit. If it be according to Your Will, glorify Your servant, Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen, by granting the favor I now request through his powerful intercession. Lord, grant that Terri Shiavo's life be spared and grant her a healing that the world may know the value of every life.
Something I just thought of:
We are a "chosen race, a Royal Priesthood, a people set apart" (and that IS Biblical), and therefore, we have a share in Christ's work of salvation. This includes making intercession while on earth, and in heaven.
Whoa! Yum! I think I'll have some of that there Life Support! :oD
With all this bumping going on, people are going to talk....
It used to be a dance.
“Catholics and some other Christians believe that the ability to make intercession on others' behalf, before the throne of God's Mercy, does not end with death”
I understand that you believe that but you go beyond scripture in so doing. There is no scriptural basis for believing this. It is the tradition of men. I understand that Catholics regard tradition as equal to scripture but I believe you are wrong in that belief.
“One Mediator, many intercessors, who are intercessors by virtue of the Sacrifice of Christ.
If this is true that we need no "allies" among the saints (the Body of Believers), then our prayers for each other mean nothing, are to no avail, and are an insult to God. I could go only to Jesus and only pray for myself.”
There you go again adding to the word. The scripture does not say one mediator many intercessors.
Then you set up a straw man by claiming that I said we need no allies among the saints. What I said was we need no additional allies in Heaven. Jesus is our mediator, not any dead saints
“and therefore, we have a share in Christ's work of salvation”
Whoaaaaaaa Nelly – Now you’ve gone waaaaaaaaay beyond. In fact you have believed the original lie -
Gen 3:4-5
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
We have no part to play in Christs work of atonement and any suggestion that we do is heresy.
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Scripture was tradition before it was written down.
There you go again adding to the word. The scripture does not say one mediator many intercessors.
Once again, the scripture does say that we are a Royal Priesthood, and part of fulfilling our Christian vocation in the Royal Priesthood is by making intercession.
Your statements seem to give a limitation on the Word of God. They seem to indicate a literal reading that doesn't acknowledge the hight, breadth, and depth of meaning that is to be found within the Bible. There are, in fact, many layers of meaning.
Then you set up a straw man by claiming that I said we need no allies among the saints. What I said was we need no additional allies in Heaven. Jesus is our mediator, not any dead saints.
I didn't set up a straw man here. Your words did seem to indicate that we do not need allies among the saints. Now it seems that you're saying we do not need allies among the saints who have passed on.
We have no part to play in Christs work of atonement and any suggestion that we do is heresy.
We cannot add to or subtract from Christ's one time, complete, and perfect Sacrifice. However, we do participate in His saving work by virtue of our participation in His Royal Priesthood. Whenever you make intercession for someone, or witness to someone, you are participating in Christ's saving work. Do you see it otherwise?
I think the bottom line of our discussion is the question did Christ really conquer death, and conquer it entirely?
By the way, I think this is a good discussion. :o)
They believe he's in heaven. There aren't any dead people in heaven. Jesus Christ himself said so.
Neither does it say that they are deaf and uncaring. If they are with God, how could they be?
One mediator - not many. If you think you need "some allies" other than Christ you minimize his great sacrifice.
Tell it to Paul, who had this annoying habit of asking other people to pray for him. He evidently did not know how much this insulted Jesus, but we trust you'll set him straight.
Oh, and, btw, if you actually read the passage in 1 Tm 2 where it talks about the "one mediator" in context, you'll find that Paul is even there commanding his intercessory prayer heresy, right there in verses 1 and 2, where he commands prayer for "kings and all who are in high positions". Seems like he actually thinks that Christians interceding for each other and even for pagans before the throne of Christ, so that He can mediate those prayers to the Father, glorifies Jesus. However, I'm glad you've set us straight and explained just what an insult that practice really is to him.
You are so correct and kudos on an excellent catholic apologetics response throughout this thread. I will post a separate thread on this topic and will bump you both to it. Perhaps "that" will clarify matters more.
Just a follow up question here. So do you think that when someone dies and goes to heaven, that they are aware of what is going on here? If that is the case, I would think it would bring great sadness if one of their loved ones was experiencing difficulty. I just think that I'm so careful because to pray to someone who died and ask them for help could open the door to someone who wants to believe their loved one is right there with them, talking to them etc. Like Sylvia Browne. It's too easy for some people to start glorifying the dead. Again, looking for answer here. Not trying to start anything.
Really? How about "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"
If Christians stop being able to pray for one another and love one another when they are separated by physical death, I'd say death has quite a sting, and the grave has quite a victory.
What I said was we need no additional allies in Heaven. Jesus is our mediator, not any dead saints
"You are wrong, because you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God ... have you not read what was said to you by God, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living."--Mt 22:29,31,32
If you call my brothers and sisters in heaven "dead," you are calling Jesus a liar.
He wrote the foreword to a Scott Hahn book I just finished reading. . . . sort of a Seal of Approval as far as I'm concerned . . .
He didn't look to well on the other hand he is alive and continuing his ministry...It's a miracle he's still with us.
The narrator finds himself on a bus ride from Hell to the outskirts of Heaven, where the Ghosts/Poor Souls are given a chance to renounce their sins and "enter into joy".
After an encounter between a Ghost and a saint (his late wife) in which the saint is unsuccessful in persuading him to forgo his sin and join her in Heaven, the narrator asks his guide (George MacDonald - whose books are also well worth reading) if it is "fair" that she feels no sorrow or compassion for the lost Ghost. MacDonald responds, "Would you rather he retained the power to hurt her? He used it many and many a time in their mortal life." He adds that Hell is so incomprehensible because it is so nearly nothing, in comparison with the joys of Heaven - "if you took all the hatred and sorrow of Hell and put it into the consciousness of that wee bird over there, it would be swallowed up."
As the Lady Saint said, "I am in Love, and out of it I will not go."
I think this also answers the question about communicating with the dead. Saints tend to send "signs", but rarely communicate directly.
And Lewis was not even Catholic, but Anglican.
I hope he continues to recover. I really didn't hold out much hope for him after the initial reports of the accident - it is indeed a miracle, much less has killed much younger men outright.
I'm VERY glad to hear that he has recovered enough to celebrate Mass in public. I hadn't heard anything for awhile.
Episcopalians have intercessory prayer. Last I heard, they were still protestants.
"One mediator - not many. If you think you need "some allies" other than Christ you minimize his great sacrifice."
You just summed up the crux of the matter between Prots and RC's.
I have the impression that you don't want to go anywhere dangerous, and yet you are trying to find out if you can legitimately have a continued, albeit changed, closeness with your mother. Having been a Catholic all my life it's just part of me to know that the communion of saints is entirely separate from the world of the occult. I can only imagine that you are torn between the possibility of having closeness with your mother, and the possibility that if you move towards it, you may find out that it's wrong to go in that direction.
I think I have the answer for you. Do you remember the parable of Lazarus and the rich man?
22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luke 16:22-26 (King James Version)
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Right away, we can see that in verses 23 and 24 Lazarus and the rich man are in two separate places, and their conditions are vastly different.
In verse 26 Jesus tells us that there is a great chasm between heaven and hell and there is no crossing over.
What the question boils down to, is that you want to know if your mother is saved, for if she is resting on the Heart of Jesus, what would be the danger to you of speaking to her there? If your thoughts are lifted to heaven, how could you possibly be leaving yourself open to the occult? You would have to purposely solicit the occult to put yourself in danger.
I would say that if your mother was a basically good, God loving woman, that it is not unreasonable for you to think of her as being in heaven. There is no way to know this for certain, baring an undisputable sign from God, until you get there yourself. To make up for this uncertainty, the only thing you can do is trust the Divine Mercy of Jesus Christ.
Go to God, and hash this out with Him. Re-read and pray over these Lazarus/rich man verses in your own Bible. Ask the Holy Spirit to guide you to His truth, and ask Him to help you see if my answer to you is right or wrong, or if he has another answer. Wait upon the Lord for His answer - He may answer you quickly, or prepare you a bit for receiving his truth. Be at peace, because God WILL give you an answer.
Above all, trust in His Mercy, and rest assured of His love for you.
So do you think that when someone dies and goes to heaven, that they are aware of what is going on here? If that is the case, I would think it would bring great sadness if one of their loved ones was experiencing difficulty.
Those in heaven are blessed with a perfected joy, and they are also blessed with perfected love. Although they don't experience sadness as we do, they love so much more. They know what's going on with us, and they make intercession for us. :o)
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