Posted on 03/04/2005 1:36:56 PM PST by Eurotwit
Yes, that was my take as well. I was shocked that an article in what I assume is a mainstream German paper was mostly free of egregious opposition.
I mostly agree with you Norton.
Still, the half heartedness, the grudging admission that Bush is right, couched in Euro-spin, Euro assertiveness, characterizes the first, bold paragraph, which is unreserved villification, the sort of thing you'd hear on the street in Karlsruhe or Koln. It sets the tone that the Freepers picked up on.
You may suggest that the point was missed. But I'd go back to Eric in the Ozarks, to whom I first responded.
This is crap.
I have zero tolerence for German lectures and piety regarding war behavior. Eff' them.
Fascinating article, especially by a German. He almost seems to get the big picture, although not quite.
Nevertheless, several cuts above the usual euro-drool.
Thanks.
"It appears that democracy is almost always born out of violence. "
The only exception I can think of is Australia.
Democracy, like a just and lasting peace, basically MUST be seized by the people, from those who would deny it to them.
Why? Simple. Nature abhores a vacuum and power will flow to wherever it is not. Therefore, in the absence of freedomn and/or peace, oppression will fill the void. To achieve those goals, oppression must therefore be defeated, and oppression never goes down without a fight.
There were several such incidents in the Sicilian campaign, mostly committed by the 45th Infantry Division. Ike himself had to visit the division to put a stop to it. The last thing Ike wanted was German soldiers afraid to surrender to American soldiers, and instead fighting to the bitter end. There's not a lot on these episodes. A buddy of mine in college wrote his senior thesis on it, and said that the DOD made it very hard for him to get his hands on the relevant documents.
A similar episode is chronicled in "An Army at Dawn", the first volume of Rick Atkinson's Liberation Triology. Darby's 1st Ranger Bn. attacked an Italian outpost at Sened Station in Tunisia. Ordered to bring back only ten prisoners, the Rangers killed all of the rest who tried to surrender. Atkinson notes that, "The Rangers joked about how it had been 'a good night for a mass murder.'" (page 331)
There are numerous other such incidents in the war, but since the winners write the history, they are seldom discussed. Besides, the mass slaughter conducted by the Germans during the war means that no one really cares anyway.
The worst thing I recall about Sicily was the terrible disaster of the Airborne troops, hundreds of whom drowned when they were told to jump too soon and landed in the sea. I'm still looking for any references to the Patton thing, but so far nothing has been found about it in my books.
Yup, this is going to be a fun experiment to watch what the men do:) Become pick-up artists? Open titty bars?
Hey that part of the world gave us Belly Dancers, so it's possible.
They gave us belly dancers and get strippers back:)
One thing they can do is turn some of their beaches into resorts, as a year-round moneymaker. Libya could. Lebanon had them in the past.
That didn't happen. They were simply arrested and quickly sent to the rear for the support personnel to deal with. My father was a medic who followed Patton in the 8th ID through North Africa, Sicily and Germany. Dad is not around anymore. He never talked much about about his 8 years, probably because he saw too much. All I can get are bits and pieces from his brothers, my uncles.
I'm sure some surrendering enemy got killed by angered US soldiers. That's not SOP. It's morally and operationally more efficient to disarm them and kick them to the rear for support to take care of them. War for them is over.
At one site they had an excerpt of a speech by Patton that basically said that if you got within 200 yards of the enemy don't let them surrender. Looked to me like a something a commander would say preparing his troops for battle. Not unlike the one at the beggining of the Patton movie.
If you look up the Biscari massacre you will find some stuff, but some of it was described as being written by people who don't like Patton.
There's nothing that shows evidence he ordered any killings.
I think the war crime accusation in the article is a stretch. I translated that article from the original German the other day.
I had a foreman once who was an Army Ranger under Patton in the Germany campaign. He thought Patton was a god. He told us of the day when Patton was driving by his unit, stopped the car, got out and told them how good they were. He said you wouldn't want to mess with him, though. Give respect, get respect.
longjack
This may be the most asinine thing I've ever read.
A war launched with the very upfront and open objective of liberating a people and improving freedom's chances in the region seems to be evolving into...an action that liberated a people and improved freedom's chances in the region.
And this is "wrongful"? It would be more correct for me to say that Germans who enslaved Europe and killed millions of Jews launched a "wrongful" war that had the direct effect of accelerating the creation of the state of Israel.
You must make a distinction here. Crimes, including war crimes are defined plans. War atrocities are committed by people that have a gut-wrenching fear in western society. Terrorists commit war crimes. Anyone qualified to be fighting a war in our society can sense immediate danger after an event or two. Atrocities are instantaneous, crimes are planned. Human nature hasn't changed in thousands of years.
Today's US democrats are in the same "old phart" mode as today's European liberal leadership. New ideas have no chance of entering their minds. If they dream one at night, it gets deposited the next morning in the toilet. Opposing the US is more important than picking up and improving upon ideas generated elsewhere.
I want to go back for a month to 9 countries, before it becomes dangerous. By that time, Libya, Lebanon and Iraq will have sprawling resorts on the beach to visit:):)
"They"?? Who is "they"?? Me? The author of the article? My Mum? My Dad? My girlfriend? We won´t stay alive until the year 4500 and haven´t lived in 1945, so why don´t you want us to speak up against war crimes TODAY?
Bull! Der Spiegel is THE magazine for the intellectual Left. The conservative/liberal weekly magazin is FOCUS.
Yeah, my opinion is less worth because I am German, sounds pretty much comparable to what Jews heard in the late 20´s, early 30´s of the last century from a certain party in Germany...
Sure, the author is a war criminal himself, after all, he is German, so he MUST BE a bad guy. Eff you.
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