Three Big Disagreements With Libertarians

Citizens Outreach ^ | 27FEB05 | Chuck Muth

[attiladhun2]

A Constitutionalist is of necessity conservative, if you live in the U.S. If you were British, you'd be a supporter of the Monarchy. Conservatism is always associated with traditionalism. Here in the U.S. our traditions are tied to the Constitution, specifically, a strict construtionist view of the document.

[DugwayDuke]

I agree. There are some things for which there are simply no feasible private providers. Besides, I wouldn't want to have to stop by the back for a roll of quarters in order to pay the toll fees every time I leave my home.

[DugwayDuke]

"The bottom line: If you are pro-life and the abortion issue is a big thing for you, you CAN find a comfortable home in the Libertarian Party. Ditto if you are pro-choice."

Oh, happy horse feathers. This is the most absurd statement I've heard in some time. One cannot be 'pro-life' and be comfortable in the Libertarian party. The libertarian position is indistinguisable from the pro-choice position because it is pro-choice. The only difference between the libertarian and the democrat position is funding. Do libertarians want to end abortion? No, only government funding. That is hardly a position one can be 'comfortable with' if one things abortion is morally wrong and akin to murder.

[SausageDog]

"Recognizing that abortion is a very sensitive issue and that people, including libertarians, can hold good-faith views on both sides, we believe the government should be kept out of the question."

Translation: "Kill the babies! Kill the babies! Kill! Kill! Kill!"

[NCSteve]

Ummm, hate to burst your bubble, but that is exactly the kind of thing Ronald Reagan proposed while getting re-elected in a landslide. In fact, Reagan said explicitly that the majority of functions performed by the government other than defense could better be served by private entities in a competetive marketplace.

I guess Reagan was just one of those crazy old Libertarians, though.

[Sam the Sham]

That's what we do with much of our weapons systems and military supplies. Lockheed-Martin, Boeing, Pratt-Whitney, etc. are private firms that the military contracts with.

No analogy whatsoever. Does Boeing provide "military consultants" as pilots ? Do we have "Wild Geese" or mercenary units ?

A lot of libertarian nonsense romantically assumes that a capitalist society will just plain magically more militarily effective than an authoritarian society. That is romantic nonsense. The values of a good soldier are duty, obedience, order, discipline, courage, and self-sacrifice. These are not free market libertarian values. They are authoritarian values.

[NCSteve]

Yet their votes in Wisconsin and Washington cost two Republicans Senators the race.

The people who voted Libertarian were not likely to have voted for those Republicans had the LP candidates not been available and the outcome would have been unchanged. For some reason, that never seems to occur to people who make this argument.

That somehow third-party candidates cost Republicans votes and or elections has to be one of the most often repeated and most ignorant arguments on the political landscape today. It is also a singularly arrogant argument since it implies that somehow the Republican candidate had some right to those votes.

A pox on thick-headed party hacks of every stripe, I say.

[secretagent]

Second, a principled limited-government voter's disagreement with a party platform position shouldn't be based on a "feeling," but on a reasoned argument derived from the principles of freedom and liberty as envisioned by our Founding Fathers and as enshrined in our Constitution.

No, a Libertarian would base his disagreement with an argument based on the LP's Statement of Principles.

[Celtjew Libertarian]

No analogy whatsoever. Does Boeing provide "military consultants" as pilots ? Do we have "Wild Geese" or mercenary units ?

I disagree that we could have a privately run military. But, given that in many countries the state has provided the armament and equipment, not private industry, I think it's an important point.

The values of a good soldier are duty, obedience, order, discipline, courage, and self-sacrifice. These are not free market libertarian values. They are authoritarian values.

But it is a free market value to choose to perform under authoratarian discipline -- something that more doctrinaire libertarians sometimes forget.

Not having served, I could be wrong. But I have the impression that initiative is also a virtue that the military approves of -- one that is more prevalent in a free market society. I'd also suggest that courage and discipline (at least of the self-discipline sort) are as much free market as authoritarian virtues.

[paulk]

The republican party has gone socialist - under Bush the fed government is growing in the double digits.


I didn't leave the Republican party, they left me.

[daguberment]

Are you going to let LSD and heroine and other super addicting drugs out on the free market...

LSD is not a "super addicting" drug, or anything similar. Perhaps the correct role for the Feds is to control sugar, fat and caffeine intake. We could establish an agency.

[Celtjew Libertarian]

Perhaps the correct role for the Feds is to control sugar, fat and caffeine intake.

You'll take my cola, when you pry it from my dead, cold, frosty, refreshing hands! 8>)

[NewRomeTacitus]

Reagan said explicitly that the majority of functions performed by the government other than defense could better be served by private entities in a competetive marketplace.

That's when I stopped listening to the old hippies and went Reaganaut. That and his confrontational strategy to end the Cold War. Unfortunately, he couldn't foresee how some of the functions taken over would be abused (the corporate prison industry I mentioned before). Without strong oversight humans will almost always succumb to their base temptations.

[82Marine89]

As long as its not Pepsi. They donate to Handgun Control Inc.

[82Marine89]

Reagan was my Commander-in Chief. Times then were great.

[Celtjew Libertarian]

As long as its not Pepsi. They donate to Handgun Control Inc.

My wife is from Atlanta. Of course I do not drink Pepsi.

(Actually, I drink Dr. Pepper and Mountain Dew, as well, but, oh, well.)

[FastCoyote]

B"ut the bottom line is, you have to draw a line somewhere. Are you going to let LSD and heroine and other super addicting drugs out on the free market where pushers can get people hooked?"

The stuff is already freely availble given 20 years of WOD. How do you explain that?

[NewRomeTacitus]

Boo-yah. We had a mission that civilians said was impossible yet helped see it won. China is not a trading partner and Mexico is not our ally. As far as that goes we should not be accepting half of Somalia's population as "refugees".

You wouldn't want me in charge.

[82Marine89]

Can I be your XO?

[familyop]

Chuck Muth left this part of the Libertarian Platform out about abortion:

"Solutions: We oppose all laws likely to impose restrictions on free choice and private property or to widen tyranny through reverse discrimination."

And on religion, notice the part about "parents":

"Solution: In order to defend freedom, we advocate a strict separation of church and State. We oppose government actions that either aid or attack any religion. We oppose taxation of church property for the same reason that we oppose all taxation. We condemn the attempts by parents or any others -- via kidnappings or conservatorships -- to force children to conform to any religious views."

There's much more, too, but it has to be read very carefully for real understanding. See for yourself. The following will save you the time of digging for it.

National Platform of the Libertarian Party
Adopted in Convention, May 2004, Atlanta Georgia
http://www.lp.org/issues/platform/preamble.html#toc

I call it "the lawyers' party." And as for Chuck, well, I unsubscribed from his list when he announced something to the effect that our Republican Party is or should be the "Ozzy Osbourne" party, or something like that.

And while you're at it, run a google.com search with the keywords, "Outright Libertarians"